Why do so many treatments just make this illness worse?!
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There is tests. I had an Xray done that should a nodule that was fungal. I go to a Mold Toxicologist. You could call him & ask about the tests. He just took 23 viles of blood from me for tests that I am awaiting the results. I'll see him end of the month. Dr Gray in Benson AZ.
Loni --- On Tue, 9/15/09, furstc0404 <[hidden email]> wrote: From: furstc0404 <[hidden email]> Subject: [eSens] Re: MRI To: [hidden email] Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 8:28 AM Loni: yep, about tests, are there any to detect mold in blood, lungs, etc... I live in a moldy appartment and still do now. It was treated and repainted, no longer visible, but still there! Fnx, K --- In eSens@yahoogroups. com, Loni <loni326@... > wrote: > > Could an MRI also be the cause of ES for some? When I was injurred by the mold exposure I had all these tests done including an MRI. Hmmmm . LOni > > --- On Mon, 9/14/09, Ian Kemp <ianandsue.kemp@ ...> wrote: > > > From: Ian Kemp <ianandsue.kemp@ ...> > Subject: RE: [eSens] MRI > To: eSens@yahoogroups. com > Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 4:28 PM > > > > > > > Well, MRI is Magnetic Resonance Imaging, and I think the scanner generates > quite a large magnetic field, which many ES people are sensitive to. So you > could see an increase in symptoms. Though I think in the past I saw one or > two posts frompeople in the group who hadn't been affected. As usual, luck > of the draw on what affects your personal system. > > Ian > > _____ > > From: eSens@yahoogroups. com [mailto:eSens@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of > furstc0404 > Sent: 14 September 2009 21:04 > To: eSens@yahoogroups. com > Subject: [eSens] Re: new electrosmog detector > > This is so true, Mark, I always feel much better outside, > huge difference. > > Nevertheless, it would be interesting to record the transmission > level and make notes as to frequency "tolerable" > > I am having an MRI on Thursday, could this cause an upsurge > in symptoms? > > A few years ago, I had an MRI, and noticed worsening then. > > Anyone else with this?? > > --- In eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens% 40yahoogroups. com> com, "Marc > Martin" <marc@> wrote: > > > > > Well, first of all, in order to start the healing process, you shouldbe > > > in an elektrosmog- poor environment. > > > And that can only be determined with some sort of detector. > > > > Well, I think some of us can determine if we are in a low EMF area > > simply by looking around, or simply by how well we feel... > > > > Marc > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
Re: new electrosmog detector
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In reply to this post by Loni Rosser
>> Well, first of all, in order to start the healing process, you should be
>> in an elektrosmog- poor environment. >> And that can only be determined with some sort of detector. >Well, I think some of us can determine if we are in a low EMF area >simply by looking around, or simply by how well we feel... I talk to ES people all the time about this. I think that ONLY going by what you feel is a big mistake. After all, that is what the cellphone doubters are doing! Even if you are exquisitely sensitive, and 100% correct with what you feel (I don't know how you would know if you are 100% correct if you have not verified with a meter), there is a wide range of EMF in our environment. It is possible that your symptoms are from a subset of what you are exposed to (certain frequencies, certain waveforms, etc). Now the important part: the background EMF that does not cause symptoms is also contributing to your exposure and may well aggravate your overall condition.... even though you don't "feel it". As a very simple example, if you are sensitive to cell tower radiation and you do what you can to reduce your exposure to RF, you may not make much progress if a big magnetic field from wiring under your bed is radiating your body 8 hours a night (but you don't feel it). Emil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links |
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In reply to this post by Loni Rosser
I had a scan which showed three small nodules on the lungs, I was told not to worry about that.. I am now worried!! I thought aspergillosis was mentioned in one of my clinic letters, will search for this. --- In [hidden email], Loni <loni326@...> wrote: > > There is tests. I had an Xray done that should a nodule that was fungal. I go to a Mold Toxicologist. You could call him & ask about the tests. He just took 23 viles of blood from me for tests that I am awaiting the results. I'll see him end of the month. Dr Gray in Benson AZ. > > Loni > > --- On Tue, 9/15/09, furstc0404 <furstc0404@...> wrote: > > > From: furstc0404 <furstc0404@...> > Subject: [eSens] Re: MRI > To: [hidden email] > Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 8:28 AM > > > > > > > > Loni: yep, about tests, are there any to detect mold > in blood, lungs, etc... I live in a moldy appartment > and still do now. It was treated and repainted, > no longer visible, but still there! Fnx, > > K > > --- In eSens@yahoogroups. com, Loni <loni326@ > wrote: > > > > Could an MRI also be the cause of ES for some? When I was injurred by the mold exposure I had all these tests done including an MRI. Hmmmm . LOni > > > > --- On Mon, 9/14/09, Ian Kemp <ianandsue.kemp@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > From: Ian Kemp <ianandsue.kemp@ ...> > > Subject: RE: [eSens] MRI > > To: eSens@yahoogroups. com > > Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 4:28 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, MRI is Magnetic Resonance Imaging, and I think the scanner generates > > quite a large magnetic field, which many ES people are sensitive to. Soyou > > could see an increase in symptoms. Though I think in the past I saw oneor > > two posts frompeople in the group who hadn't been affected. As usual, luck > > of the draw on what affects your personal system. > > > > Ian > > > > _____ > > > > From: eSens@yahoogroups. com [mailto:eSens@ yahoogroups. com] On BehalfOf > > furstc0404 > > Sent: 14 September 2009 21:04 > > To: eSens@yahoogroups. com > > Subject: [eSens] Re: new electrosmog detector > > > > This is so true, Mark, I always feel much better outside, > > huge difference. > > > > Nevertheless, it would be interesting to record the transmission > > level and make notes as to frequency "tolerable" > > > > I am having an MRI on Thursday, could this cause an upsurge > > in symptoms? > > > > A few years ago, I had an MRI, and noticed worsening then. > > > > Anyone else with this?? > > > > --- In eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens% 40yahoogroups. com> com, "Marc > > Martin" <marc@> wrote: > > > > > > > Well, first of all, in order to start the healing process, you should be > > > > in an elektrosmog- poor environment. > > > > And that can only be determined with some sort of detector. > > > > > > Well, I think some of us can determine if we are in a low EMF area > > > simply by looking around, or simply by how well we feel... > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > |
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In reply to this post by S.T.
brilliant article, thank you so much for posting this. Ada --- On Wed, 16/9/09, S.T. <[hidden email]> wrote: From: S.T. <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [eSens] Adrenal support To: [hidden email] Date: Wednesday, 16 September, 2009, 1:38 AM Also do not forget to take lots of vitamin C with glandular because that really fortifies glandular intake. Of course all other minerals and vitamins too. Although I am currently not taking glandulars and cortef ( a break after three years) I like reading this particular piece now and again. Myths about burnout http://www.drlwilso n.com/Articles/ adrenal_burnout. htm Sandra --- On Mon, 9/14/09, Marc Martin <marc@ufoseries. com> wrote: From: Marc Martin <marc@ufoseries. com> Subject: [eSens] Adrenal support To: eSens@yahoogroups. com Received: Monday, September 14, 2009, 11:28 AM Hi all, Recently I've become very aware of how important adequate adrenal support has been to my initial recovery, relapse, and second recovery. In fact, this may have always been my #1 issue, including the reason why I cannot tolerate heavy metal detox without simultaneously supporting the adrenals. Looking back, I see that my initial ES problems occurred after I stopped taking a cortico-steroid nasal spray (Beconase), which is essentially "adrenal-replacemen t" therapy (and most certainly weakens the adrenals over the longterm, as they see that they're not needed if the drugs are doing all of their work). During my initial recovery, I was taking supplements to help rebuild my adrenal glands (Drenatrophin PMG and Paraplex from Standard Process). And I definitely improved during this time. During my relapse, I was not taking any adrenal support supplements, and was even becoming caffeine-dependent (Yerba Mate) to have enough energy to get through the day. Unfortunately, while providing short term benefits, caffeine causes long term weakening of the adrenals. During my second recovery, I was back on adrenal support -- Adrenal Desicated and Drenatrophin PMG from Standard Process. And I just recently ordered some new supplements, Adrenal Cortex from Nutricology, IsoCort, and "Dr. Wilsons Adrenal Rebuilder". I must say that IsoCort really helps out with immediate energy levels, and maybe also EMF anxiety symptoms. Perhaps this is a healthy caffeine alternative? So if anyone here is suffering from adrenal insufficiency symptoms, you might want to look into adding some adrenal support. These symptoms would include: * fatigue * dependency on caffeine to get through the day * inability to handle stress * anxiety Marc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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In reply to this post by Emil at Less EMF Inc
Hi Emil,
Of course it is always beneficial to have a measuring tool or a test; 1. to exactly determine what is bothering you so hopefully we can avoid it and heal 2. to shut up non- believers and prove that such radiation exist 3. to hopefully establish this condition in allopathic and alternative medicine and every other medical institution that we need to get help from etc. The general truth remains, we have ES because we feel symptoms or someone we are taking care of has symptoms. Otherwise WE WOULD NOT BE here inthis group. Yes, the subset of certain frequencies might be bothering me while othersare not. Picking between towers and saying this might be having a frequency that is bothering me and this one does not. Is that even practically possible? Yes, electromagnetic fields are cumulative and even when we do not feel symptoms these things are scorching us slowly. Even the healthy population is affected by these fields although they live happily unaware. Because they DO NOT FEEL ES symptoms. You are right as far eliminating every possible cause that contributesto our ailment. Coil mattresses have been established as evil and many generally useful gadgets used amongst the healthy population This group has matured to the point of awareness that everything under the sun can be seen as a potential benefit, or potential irritant to our symptoms. Sandra --- On Tue, 9/15/09, lessemf.com <[hidden email]> wrote: From: lessemf.com <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [eSens] new electrosmog detector To: [hidden email] Received: Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 8:52 AM >> Well, first of all, in order to start the healing process, you should be >> in an elektrosmog- poor environment. >> And that can only be determined with some sort of detector. >Well, I think some of us can determine if we are in a low EMF area >simply by looking around, or simply by how well we feel... I talk to ES people all the time about this. I think that ONLY going by what you feel is a big mistake. After all, that is what the cellphone doubters are doing! Even if you are exquisitely sensitive, and 100% correct with what you feel (I don't know how you would know if you are 100% correct if you have not verified with a meter), there is a wide range of EMF in our environment. It is possible that your symptoms are from a subset of what you are exposed to (certain frequencies, certain waveforms, etc). Now the important part: the background EMF that does not cause symptoms is also contributing to your exposure and may well aggravate your overall condition... . even though you don't "feel it". As a very simple example, if you are sensitive to cell tower radiation and you do what you can to reduce your exposure to RF, you may not make much progress if a big magnetic field from wiring under your bed is radiating your body 8 hours a night (but you don't feel it). Emil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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In reply to this post by Emil at Less EMF Inc
And this is exactly as I see it.
ALL aspects of elektrosmog must be known. Greetings, Charles Claessens member Verband Baubiologie www.milieuziektes.nl www.milieuziektes.be www.hetbitje.nl checked by Norton ----- Original Message ----- From: "lessemf.com" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 5:52 PM Subject: Re: [eSens] new electrosmog detector >>> Well, first of all, in order to start the healing process, you should be >>> in an elektrosmog- poor environment. >>> And that can only be determined with some sort of detector. > >>Well, I think some of us can determine if we are in a low EMF area >>simply by looking around, or simply by how well we feel... > > > I talk to ES people all the time about this. I think that ONLY going by > what > you feel is a big mistake. After all, that is what the cellphone doubters > are doing! > > Even if you are exquisitely sensitive, and 100% correct with what you feel > (I don't know how you would know if you are 100% correct if you have not > verified with a meter), there is a wide range of EMF in our environment. > It > is possible that your symptoms are from a subset of what you are exposed > to > (certain frequencies, certain waveforms, etc). Now the important part: the > background EMF that does not cause symptoms is also contributing to your > exposure and may well aggravate your overall condition.... even though you > don't "feel it". > > As a very simple example, if you are sensitive to cell tower radiation and > you do what you can to reduce your exposure to RF, you may not make much > progress if a big magnetic field from wiring under your bed is radiating > your body 8 hours a night (but you don't feel it). > > Emil > |
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In reply to this post by Ian Kemp
In a message dated 15/09/2009 19:05:35 GMT Daylight Time, [hidden email] writes: As a very simple example, if you are sensitive to cell tower radiation and > you do what you can to reduce your exposure to RF, you may not make much > progress if a big magnetic field from wiring under your bed is radiating > your body 8 hours a night (but you don't feel it). > > Emil paul uk - Evan the weather conditions can tip you over to increased sensitivity I can without the shadow of a doubt feel storm clouds effects as ES effects. But as you say its the old water butt analogy our sensitivity levels are constantly being topped up and when the water starts to spill over the top thats when you can feel the common agitators, unfortunately that is a constant for those in highly electrosmogged environments. House wiring is the trojan horse here all to often - its a messy sewer running through our homes ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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In reply to this post by Loni Rosser
In a message dated 15/09/2009 18:29:00 GMT Daylight Time, [hidden email] writes: Loni: yep, about tests, are there any to detect mold in blood, lungs, etc... I live in a moldy appartment and still do now. It was treated and repainted, no longer visible, but still there! Fnx, Paul uk - My fathers place would kill you, I only need to spend a few minutes there and my nose feels like you have stuffed chill pepper up it, the same house leaves me very uneasy and when I borrowed a stetzer meter from a freind and used it there it read 1000 units ! It is is typical that a possible place of refuge with nice surroundings is off limits ! why - Persecution complex aside. p [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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In reply to this post by furstc0404-2
That kind of thing needs to be watched. I am going to schedule a reexam. I do believe it is aspergillus. I was overexposed to that mold (one of). Loni
--- On Tue, 9/15/09, furstc0404 <[hidden email]> wrote: From: furstc0404 <[hidden email]> Subject: [eSens] Re: MRI/Mold To: [hidden email] Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 9:38 AM I had a scan which showed three small nodules on the lungs, I was told not to worry about that.. I am now worried!! I thought aspergillosis was mentioned in one of my clinic letters, will search for this. --- In eSens@yahoogroups. com, Loni <loni326@... > wrote: > > There is tests. I had an Xray done that should a nodule that was fungal. I go to a Mold Toxicologist. You could call him & ask about the tests. He just took 23 viles of blood from me for tests that I am awaiting the results. I'll see him end of the month. Dr Gray in Benson AZ. > > Loni > > --- On Tue, 9/15/09, furstc0404 <furstc0404@ ...> wrote: > > > From: furstc0404 <furstc0404@ ...> > Subject: [eSens] Re: MRI > To: eSens@yahoogroups. com > Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 8:28 AM > > > > > > > > Loni: yep, about tests, are there any to detect mold > in blood, lungs, etc... I live in a moldy appartment > and still do now. It was treated and repainted, > no longer visible, but still there! Fnx, > > K > > --- In eSens@yahoogroups. com, Loni <loni326@ > wrote: > > > > Could an MRI also be the cause of ES for some? When I was injurred by the mold exposure I had all these tests done including an MRI. Hmmmm . LOni > > > > --- On Mon, 9/14/09, Ian Kemp <ianandsue.kemp@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > From: Ian Kemp <ianandsue.kemp@ ...> > > Subject: RE: [eSens] MRI > > To: eSens@yahoogroups. com > > Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 4:28 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, MRI is Magnetic Resonance Imaging, and I think the scanner generates > > quite a large magnetic field, which many ES people are sensitive to. Soyou > > could see an increase in symptoms. Though I think in the past I saw oneor > > two posts frompeople in the group who hadn't been affected. As usual, luck > > of the draw on what affects your personal system. > > > > Ian > > > > _____ > > > > From: eSens@yahoogroups. com [mailto:eSens@ yahoogroups. com] On BehalfOf > > furstc0404 > > Sent: 14 September 2009 21:04 > > To: eSens@yahoogroups. com > > Subject: [eSens] Re: new electrosmog detector > > > > This is so true, Mark, I always feel much better outside, > > huge difference. > > > > Nevertheless, it would be interesting to record the transmission > > level and make notes as to frequency "tolerable" > > > > I am having an MRI on Thursday, could this cause an upsurge > > in symptoms? > > > > A few years ago, I had an MRI, and noticed worsening then. > > > > Anyone else with this?? > > > > --- In eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens% 40yahoogroups. com> com, "Marc > > Martin" <marc@> wrote: > > > > > > > Well, first of all, in order to start the healing process, you should be > > > > in an elektrosmog- poor environment. > > > > And that can only be determined with some sort of detector. > > > > > > Well, I think some of us can determine if we are in a low EMF area > > > simply by looking around, or simply by how well we feel... > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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In reply to this post by S.T.
The think about any detector is that I don't believe they are as sensitive as we are. I had a Building Biologist here that tested my house. The radiation was the lowest in my daughter's room however my skin still burned.Her instrument was a $2,000 dollar instument. And I know it is electrical issue. Loni
--- On Tue, 9/15/09, S.T. <[hidden email]> wrote: From: S.T. <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [eSens] new electrosmog detector To: [hidden email] Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 10:13 AM Hi Emil, Of course it is always beneficial to have a measuring tool or a test; 1. to exactly determine what is bothering you so hopefully we can avoid it and heal 2. to shut up non- believers and prove that such radiation exist 3. to hopefully establish this condition in allopathic and alternative medicine and every other medical institution that we need to get help from etc. The general truth remains, we have ES because we feel symptoms or someone we are taking care of has symptoms. Otherwise WE WOULD NOT BE here inthis group. Yes, the subset of certain frequencies might be bothering me while othersare not. Picking between towers and saying this might be having a frequency that is bothering me and this one does not. Is that even practically possible? Yes, electromagnetic fields are cumulative and even when we do not feel symptoms these things are scorching us slowly. Even the healthy population is affected by these fields although they live happily unaware. Because they DO NOT FEEL ES symptoms. You are right as far eliminating every possible cause that contributesto our ailment. Coil mattresses have been established as evil and many generally useful gadgets used amongst the healthy population This group has matured to the point of awareness that everything under the sun can be seen as a potential benefit, or potential irritant to our symptoms. Sandra --- On Tue, 9/15/09, lessemf.com <lessemf@lessemf. com> wrote: From: lessemf.com <lessemf@lessemf. com> Subject: Re: [eSens] new electrosmog detector To: eSens@yahoogroups. com Received: Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 8:52 AM >> Well, first of all, in order to start the healing process, you should be >> in an elektrosmog- poor environment. >> And that can only be determined with some sort of detector. >Well, I think some of us can determine if we are in a low EMF area >simply by looking around, or simply by how well we feel... I talk to ES people all the time about this. I think that ONLY going by what you feel is a big mistake. After all, that is what the cellphone doubters are doing! Even if you are exquisitely sensitive, and 100% correct with what you feel (I don't know how you would know if you are 100% correct if you have not verified with a meter), there is a wide range of EMF in our environment. It is possible that your symptoms are from a subset of what you are exposed to (certain frequencies, certain waveforms, etc). Now the important part: the background EMF that does not cause symptoms is also contributing to your exposure and may well aggravate your overall condition... . even though you don't "feel it". As a very simple example, if you are sensitive to cell tower radiation and you do what you can to reduce your exposure to RF, you may not make much progress if a big magnetic field from wiring under your bed is radiating your body 8 hours a night (but you don't feel it). Emil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
Re: new electrosmog detector
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I completely understand, but you are missing the point.
You are only measuring what you are already sensitive to. The other types of EMF are also contributing to your overall exposure... and could inhibit your recovery (even though they don't make you "hurt"). Emil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loni" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [eSens] new electrosmog detector The think about any detector is that I don't believe they are as sensitive as we are. I had a Building Biologist here that tested my house. The radiation was the lowest in my daughter's room however my skin still burned.Her instrument was a $2,000 dollar instument. And I know it is electrical issue. Loni --- On Tue, 9/15/09, S.T. <[hidden email]> wrote: From: S.T. <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [eSens] new electrosmog detector To: [hidden email] Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 10:13 AM Hi Emil, Of course it is always beneficial to have a measuring tool or a test; 1. to exactly determine what is bothering you so hopefully we can avoid it and heal 2. to shut up non- believers and prove that such radiation exist 3. to hopefully establish this condition in allopathic and alternative medicine and every other medical institution that we need to get help from etc. The general truth remains, we have ES because we feel symptoms or someone we are taking care of has symptoms. Otherwise WE WOULD NOT BE here in this group. Yes, the subset of certain frequencies might be bothering me while others are not. Picking between towers and saying this might be having a frequency that is bothering me and this one does not. Is that even practically possible? Yes, electromagnetic fields are cumulative and even when we do not feel symptoms these things are scorching us slowly. Even the healthy population is affected by these fields although they live happily unaware. Because they DO NOT FEEL ES symptoms. You are right as far eliminating every possible cause that contributes to our ailment. Coil mattresses have been established as evil and many generally useful gadgets used amongst the healthy population This group has matured to the point of awareness that everything under the sun can be seen as a potential benefit, or potential irritant to our symptoms. Sandra --- On Tue, 9/15/09, lessemf.com <lessemf@lessemf. com> wrote: From: lessemf.com <lessemf@lessemf. com> Subject: Re: [eSens] new electrosmog detector To: eSens@yahoogroups. com Received: Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 8:52 AM >> Well, first of all, in order to start the healing process, you should be >> in an elektrosmog- poor environment. >> And that can only be determined with some sort of detector. >Well, I think some of us can determine if we are in a low EMF area >simply by looking around, or simply by how well we feel... I talk to ES people all the time about this. I think that ONLY going by what you feel is a big mistake. After all, that is what the cellphone doubters are doing! Even if you are exquisitely sensitive, and 100% correct with what you feel (I don't know how you would know if you are 100% correct if you have not verified with a meter), there is a wide range of EMF in our environment. It is possible that your symptoms are from a subset of what you are exposed to (certain frequencies, certain waveforms, etc). Now the important part: the background EMF that does not cause symptoms is also contributing to your exposure and may well aggravate your overall condition... . even though you don't "feel it". As a very simple example, if you are sensitive to cell tower radiation and you do what you can to reduce your exposure to RF, you may not make much progress if a big magnetic field from wiring under your bed is radiating your body 8 hours a night (but you don't feel it). Emil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Yes I understand Emil but in order to measure everything don't you have to have all kinds of different testing equipement that measures each & every electrical frequency? The expense of that seems unrealistic. Loni
--- On Wed, 9/16/09, lessemf.com <[hidden email]> wrote: From: lessemf.com <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [eSens] new electrosmog detector To: [hidden email] Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 11:19 AM I completely understand, but you are missing the point. You are only measuring what you are already sensitive to. The other types of EMF are also contributing to your overall exposure... and could inhibit your recovery (even though they don't make you "hurt"). Emil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loni" <loni326@yahoo. com> To: <eSens@yahoogroups. com> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [eSens] new electrosmog detector The think about any detector is that I don't believe they are as sensitive as we are. I had a Building Biologist here that tested my house. The radiation was the lowest in my daughter's room however my skin still burned.Her instrument was a $2,000 dollar instument. And I know it is electrical issue. Loni --- On Tue, 9/15/09, S.T. <stcro@rogers. com> wrote: From: S.T. <stcro@rogers. com> Subject: Re: [eSens] new electrosmog detector To: eSens@yahoogroups. com Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 10:13 AM Hi Emil, Of course it is always beneficial to have a measuring tool or a test; 1. to exactly determine what is bothering you so hopefully we can avoid it and heal 2. to shut up non- believers and prove that such radiation exist 3. to hopefully establish this condition in allopathic and alternative medicine and every other medical institution that we need to get help from etc. The general truth remains, we have ES because we feel symptoms or someone we are taking care of has symptoms. Otherwise WE WOULD NOT BE here in this group. Yes, the subset of certain frequencies might be bothering me while others are not. Picking between towers and saying this might be having a frequency that is bothering me and this one does not. Is that even practically possible? Yes, electromagnetic fields are cumulative and even when we do not feel symptoms these things are scorching us slowly. Even the healthy population is affected by these fields although they live happily unaware. Because they DO NOT FEEL ES symptoms. You are right as far eliminating every possible cause that contributes to our ailment. Coil mattresses have been established as evil and many generally useful gadgets used amongst the healthy population This group has matured to the point of awareness that everything under the sun can be seen as a potential benefit, or potential irritant to our symptoms. Sandra --- On Tue, 9/15/09, lessemf.com <lessemf@lessemf. com> wrote: From: lessemf.com <lessemf@lessemf. com> Subject: Re: [eSens] new electrosmog detector To: eSens@yahoogroups. com Received: Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 8:52 AM >> Well, first of all, in order to start the healing process, you should be >> in an elektrosmog- poor environment. >> And that can only be determined with some sort of detector. >Well, I think some of us can determine if we are in a low EMF area >simply by looking around, or simply by how well we feel... I talk to ES people all the time about this. I think that ONLY going by what you feel is a big mistake. After all, that is what the cellphone doubters are doing! Even if you are exquisitely sensitive, and 100% correct with what you feel (I don't know how you would know if you are 100% correct if you have not verified with a meter), there is a wide range of EMF in our environment. It is possible that your symptoms are from a subset of what you are exposed to (certain frequencies, certain waveforms, etc). Now the important part: the background EMF that does not cause symptoms is also contributing to your exposure and may well aggravate your overall condition... . even though you don't "feel it". As a very simple example, if you are sensitive to cell tower radiation and you do what you can to reduce your exposure to RF, you may not make much progress if a big magnetic field from wiring under your bed is radiating your body 8 hours a night (but you don't feel it). Emil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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In reply to this post by Ian Kemp
In a message dated 16/09/2009 19:27:35 GMT Daylight Time, [hidden email] writes: I completely understand, but you are missing the point. You are only measuring what you are already sensitive to. The other types of EMF are also contributing to your overall exposure... and could inhibit your recovery (even though they don't make you "hurt"). Emil Paul UK - Yes I fully understand this, it would be blinkered to think that the usual suspects are the only agitants, so the moral of the story is to keep things simple particularly in your own home or go for the ALARA principle - as low as reasonably acheivable. But the other side to this is evan as Essers fully aware of the dangers of certain technological devices we are only human and are often complacent about that which does not give us a bite in the bum, this is the problem we face in trying to persuade or educate those who embrace all the new wireless technologies, they simply do not feel any harm from them. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
Re: magnesium sulphate / cysteine conversion and test
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In reply to this post by furstc0404-2
Kooky, I'm no expert on liver-detoxification. I've been reading a bit about it the last couple of days though. As you probably know we talk about phase 1 and phase 2 of the liver's detoxification. In phase 1 we have the cytochrome P 450 system which are about 80 different enzymes (the CYPs you are referring to). These enzymes transform toxins. Many of these transformed intermediate substances from phase 1 are even more toxic than the original toxins, so if they can't rapidly go andget transformed further in phase 2, there's a risk of an enormous amount of free-radical-production, leading to all kinds of damage. Phase 2 conjugates the intermediate products from phase 1 and makes sure they are excreted through kidneys, bile, stools. The conjugation in phase 2 are gluthation-conjugation, sulphation, amino-acid-conjugation (glycine and taurine), glucoronation, acethylation and methylation. (perhaps more???) Heavy metals get methylated. If you have MCS or 'react to everything', you could have a slow phase 2 relative to phase 1. So yes, it could involve both the CYPs in phase 1 (being fast or normal) and methylation (or any of the other phase 2 pathways) being too slow. I'm not familiar with Yasko's. I think there are quite a few tests out there measuring liver detoxification, but I don't think any of them can cover all aspects of both phase 1 and phase 2, but certainly the phase 2 pathways and one or more of the phase 1 enzymes I would think there were a test for.(I've not done any such test myself.) John O. --- In [hidden email], "furstc0404" <furstc0404@...> wrote: > > > John, I have two questions here, concerning methylation. > > Are there any tests for looking at methylation other than Yasko's? > > Secondly, if reacting to most compounds in most foods, (as compounds reaches toxicity level, leading to being violently ill) MCS, EMS/ES, allergies,etc, would this involve CYPs in liver, kidneys, digestive system, or methylation or both??? > > kooky > > > > --- In [hidden email], "johnottawa80" <johnottawa80@> wrote: > > > > Hi again Ian, > > and thanks for the answer! > > I guess I should do some reading on liver-biochemistry. After doing some googling I now see that the use of Epsom Salts (Mag. phos.) in lead-poisoning probably works because lead combines with the sulphate to make the insoluble precipitate lead sulfate, which would be nontoxic. It has nothing todo with the liver. (And of course heavy metals are handeled through the methylation-pathway, not the sulphation-pathway.) > > John O. > > > > --- In [hidden email], "Ian Kemp" <ianandsue.kemp@> wrote: > > > > > > The test which measures both cysteine and sulphate levels is the "Plasma > > > cysteine and sulphate" test. It cost about £100 (so could be $ 100-200 in > > > North America). Sue's was sent to the European Laboratory of Nutrients, > > > which seems to be linked to Diagnostics Inc in NJ, USA. I think Great > > > Smokies Labs do a similar test. > > > > > > In Sue's case her cysteine levels were normal (or slightly high) whereas her > > > sulphate was way below the reference range, which is 1400-3000; when first > > > tested she was down at about 250! She is now round the bottom end ofthe > > > reference range, so her sulphate levels have gone up by a factor of x6. > > > > > > One of the best descriptions of liver detox in general is in the > > > "Detoxification Profile Application Guide" from Great Smokies Laboratory. > > > The sulphation pathway is the main metabolism route for a number of drugs, > > > neurotransmitters and other substances. In particular, paracetamol is > > > detoxified by this route, so is used as the basis of "challenge tests" to > > > see if this pathway is working. > > > > > > Sulphur can be in organic forms in foods, including cysteine, methionine and > > > glutathione, which then undergo "sulphoxidation" to become inorganic > > > sulphate which does the actual detoxification reaction. But it has been > > > observed medically that some people have high cysteine levels and low > > > sulphate levels, which suggests that the enzyme used for sulphoxidation is > > > deficient. This has been observed particularly for patients with > > > Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and motor neurone disease. These people do not > > > benefit from cysteine supplementation (e.g. with MSM) and need inorganic > > > sulphate (magnesium sulphate directly). High cysteine or "organic sulphur" > > > levels might cause side-effects as you describe John, but I don't know what > > > these might be. Conversely, people where the sulphoxidation pathway and > > > enzyme are working normally do fine with cysteine supplements. > > > > > > Certainly that was what we observed with Sue; MSM did not seem to help her > > > at all but magnesium sulphate infusions gave a steady improvement. > > > > > > This is the snag with prescribing supplements based on general principles > > > without doing tests; what benefits 90% of the population may be bad for the > > > person with MCS and ES who, by definition, has something unusual about their > > > metabolism somewhere. > > > > > > Ian > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > > > johnottawa80 > > > Sent: 14 September 2009 10:41 > > > To: [hidden email] > > > Subject: [eSens] Re: magnesium sulphate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However in Sue's case we found her cysteine levels were OK but sulphate > > > > appallingly low, so her body isn't doing the conversion process. > > > > > > Ian, > > > what you write here about sulphur-to-sulphate-conversion is interesting. > > > I have over the last couple of years developed tics (unvolunteer muscle > > > contractions, or 'jerks'). It seems to increase when I eat > > > sulphur-containing foods (like eggs, kale, onions). Could it perhaps be that > > > my abillity to convert sulphur to sulphate is very low? > > > > > > I still don't see how an 'accumulation' of sulphur (cystein etc.) would > > > (biochemically) cause the tics though. > > > Perhaps anybody has any ideas/explainations? > > > > > > Is it the liver which does the sulphur-to-sulphate conversion? > > > Is this conversion perhaps a part of the sulphate detox pathway, or is this > > > two seperate processes? > > > > > > Ian, can you tell me what kind of test one should do to find out how the > > > sulphate liver-detox pathway is functioning? (Name and lab.) > > > Or perhaps there's another test which just measures sulphate and cysteine in > > > blood? > > > > > > James > > > > Herriot, who wrote a very popular and entertaining series of books about > > > > life as a vet (familar to UK readers but probably not in North America?) > > > > described how, in the days before drugs, he successfully treated calves > > > for > > > > lead poisoning (caused by them licking old paint) using Epsom salts > > > > > > This is very interesting! > > > So: Is it the Magnesium or the Sulphate which detoxifies lead? > > > Is it perhaps the sulphate which makes the liver's ability to detoxify lead > > > increase? > > > It is recommended by many 'experts' to eat cystein-rich foods (or take > > > N-acetyl-cystein as a supplement) when dealing with heavy metal > > > detoxification. I always thought that it was for the thiol-groups in > > > cystein, which would have an affinity to e.g. mercury, but perhaps cystein > > > is recommended because it (after first being converted to sulphate) > > > increases the 'strength' of the sulphate-detox-pathway in the liver? > > > If so, if one is low in sulphate, it seems crusial to get sulphate in > > > supplement-form (epsom salts) in order to deal with > > > heavy-metal-detoxification. > > > Does anybody know more about this? > > > > > > Regards, > > > John O. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > |
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In reply to this post by furstc0404-2
Hi Kooky,
Disappointing that you've not had helpful feedback from Genova. The "detoxigenomic profile" sounds as if it is completely different from the "detoxification profile" despite the similarity of names. The former sounds like a genetic test. These are fairly new and I think in some cases the doctors are still learning how to interpret them. The detoxification profile is a much simpler test - it is a "challenge test" involving drinking 3 different common substances - caffeine, aspirin and paracetamol - and measuring how the body metabolised them by taking and analysing a urine sample. Each substance is metabolised by a different pathway. Liver metabolism is complex and there's quite a number of different sites and books which try to describe it with varying success. They don't even all agree fully on the different pathways. We've found Patrick Holford's books are quite well explained. Ian _____ From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of furstc0404 Sent: 15 September 2009 11:09 To: [hidden email] Subject: [eSens] Re: magnesium sulphate / cysteine conversion and test Hi Ian: Great Smokies Lab is now called Genova Diagnostics:http://www.gdx. <http://www.gdx.uk.net/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1> uk.net/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 I phoned them just now to ask about a test for measuring sulphate and cysteine levels. According to the person I spoke to, they don't do this test. I also asked if they had a document titled "Detoxification Profile Application Guide" instead they have a sample report for the Detoxignomic Profile. I did the Detoxigenomic Profile test and to date, no one has been able to explain what some of it means in terms of liver function. For instance, my severe symptoms and inability to metabolize meds, vits and supps, most foods, MCS, adverse reactions, allergies etc... appear to show dysfunction in CYP3A4, yet there was a red asterisk by this. Looking at the key at the bottom of the page, it was written "Multiple SNP locations were evaluated for those genes." What does this mean? It does not show it to be either dysfunctional. I asked several scientists, doctors, and others who had the test done, including Genova Diagnostics to no avail. Polymorphisms were shown in 1B1 and 2C9, others with red asterisks as with the CYP3A4. I already posted about the absent GTSM1 glutathione transferese and SOD etc... The doctor I was seeing at the time, was convinced according to my severe symptoms, that CYP3A4 would either be absent or dysfunctional. He contacted the lab and asked about that, to date, no response. I am not sure how to proceed from here. Is there a good site explaining this in simple terms, am also interested in reading about methylation pathways and sulphur. I already looked at some sites including Van Konyenburg. Many thanks Kooky --- In eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Ian Kemp" <ianandsue.kemp@...> wrote: > > The test which measures both cysteine and sulphate levels is the "Plasma > cysteine and sulphate" test. It cost about £100 (so could be $ 100-200 in > North America). Sue's was sent to the European Laboratory of Nutrients, > which seems to be linked to Diagnostics Inc in NJ, USA. I think Great > Smokies Labs do a similar test. > > In Sue's case her cysteine levels were normal (or slightly high) whereas her > sulphate was way below the reference range, which is 1400-3000; when first > tested she was down at about 250! She is now round the bottom end of the > reference range, so her sulphate levels have gone up by a factor of x6. > > One of the best descriptions of liver detox in general is in the > "Detoxification Profile Application Guide" from Great Smokies Laboratory. > The sulphation pathway is the main metabolism route for a number of drugs, > neurotransmitters and other substances. In particular, paracetamol is > detoxified by this route, so is used as the basis of "challenge tests" to > see if this pathway is working. > > Sulphur can be in organic forms in foods, including cysteine, methionine > glutathione, which then undergo "sulphoxidation" to become inorganic > sulphate which does the actual detoxification reaction. But it has been > observed medically that some people have high cysteine levels and low > sulphate levels, which suggests that the enzyme used for sulphoxidation is > deficient. This has been observed particularly for patients with > Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and motor neurone disease. These people do not > benefit from cysteine supplementation (e.g. with MSM) and need inorganic > sulphate (magnesium sulphate directly). High cysteine or "organic sulphur" > levels might cause side-effects as you describe John, but I don't know what > these might be. Conversely, people where the sulphoxidation pathway and > enzyme are working normally do fine with cysteine supplements. > > Certainly that was what we observed with Sue; MSM did not seem to help her > at all but magnesium sulphate infusions gave a steady improvement. > > This is the snag with prescribing supplements based on general principles > without doing tests; what benefits 90% of the population may be bad for the > person with MCS and ES who, by definition, has something unusual about their > metabolism somewhere. > > Ian > > _____ > > From: eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com [mailto:eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf Of > johnottawa80 > Sent: 14 September 2009 10:41 > To: eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com > Subject: [eSens] Re: magnesium sulphate > > > > > > However in Sue's case we found her cysteine levels were OK but sulphate > > appallingly low, so her body isn't doing the conversion process. > > Ian, > what you write here about sulphur-to-sulphate-conversion is interesting. > I have over the last couple of years developed tics (unvolunteer muscle > contractions, or 'jerks'). It seems to increase when I eat > sulphur-containing foods (like eggs, kale, onions). Could it perhaps be > my abillity to convert sulphur to sulphate is very low? > > I still don't see how an 'accumulation' of sulphur (cystein etc.) would > (biochemically) cause the tics though. > Perhaps anybody has any ideas/explainations? > > Is it the liver which does the sulphur-to-sulphate conversion? > Is this conversion perhaps a part of the sulphate detox pathway, or is this > two seperate processes? > > Ian, can you tell me what kind of test one should do to find out how the > sulphate liver-detox pathway is functioning? (Name and lab.) > Or perhaps there's another test which just measures sulphate and cysteine in > blood? > > James > > Herriot, who wrote a very popular and entertaining series of books about > > life as a vet (familar to UK readers but probably not in North America?) > > described how, in the days before drugs, he successfully treated calves > for > > lead poisoning (caused by them licking old paint) using Epsom salts > > This is very interesting! > So: Is it the Magnesium or the Sulphate which detoxifies lead? > Is it perhaps the sulphate which makes the liver's ability to detoxify > increase? > It is recommended by many 'experts' to eat cystein-rich foods (or take > N-acetyl-cystein as a supplement) when dealing with heavy metal > detoxification. I always thought that it was for the thiol-groups in > cystein, which would have an affinity to e.g. mercury, but perhaps cystein > is recommended because it (after first being converted to sulphate) > increases the 'strength' of the sulphate-detox-pathway in the liver? > If so, if one is low in sulphate, it seems crusial to get sulphate in > supplement-form (epsom salts) in order to deal with > heavy-metal-detoxification. > Does anybody know more about this? > > Regards, > John O. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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In reply to this post by Marc Martin
I wish Marc's sceptical view on lab tests was wrong, but I think there is a
very large grain of truth in it. The lab tests themselves can be helpful - they certainly pinpointed key problems for Sue - but finding someone to interpret them is difficult. The labs themselves don't seem to have many experts who can do this. Mnay mainstream doctors don't use the tests because they are "non standard", and many "alternative" doctors or nutritionists don't seem to have the medical knowledge to interpret them except in a very basic way. We get our consultations at a private hospital and there is a waiting list of 2-3 weeks for an appointment with the expert doctors as they are snowed under with demand. There are just not enough really competent doctors involved in this field at present, I think, certainly in the UK - partly because it is controversial. Many of the key players seem to have got involved because they or a family member has developed an MCS/allergy type illness and they have had to dig deep into the background to try to solve it. Ian _____ From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marc Martin Sent: 15 September 2009 15:04 To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [eSens] Re: magnesium sulphate / cysteine conversion and test > I asked several scientists, doctors, and others who had the test done, > including Genova Diagnostics to no avail. Yes, I have long held the belief that lab tests are for the most part useless, and one of the reasons is that often the doctors who order these tests don't really know how to interpret the results, or how to resolve the problems reported in the tests. Of course, if one has a really good doctor, then the test might be useful, but doctors this good appear to be quite rare. Marc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
Re: magnesium sulphate / cysteine conversion and test
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In reply to this post by Ian Kemp
Thanks Ian: I was offered the Detox Profile. I am unable to do this test because I am too ill and unable to metabolize coffee (not drunk it for almost 10 years now), Aspirin and paracetamol. I can only "digest" and "metabolize" approx eight foods since 2002!! Liver pathways, enzymes, methylation, genomics, are in its infancy. Tests are difficult to interpret, protocols and criteria for testing are not yet defined. It will probably take quite a few years yet to define the human genome. Some say that if a gene is dysfunctional, it can be switched on/off, but noone knows what happens if a gene is absent, as for instance GTSM glutathione transferase and -- SOD1, --SOD1, +- SOD2. Are Sue's similar? For now, it is best to go by my own reactions, share info and tips with others, and read up as you suggested. Will look up Patrick Holford's book on liver pathways. --- In [hidden email], "Ian Kemp" <ianandsue.kemp@...> wrote: > > Hi Kooky, > > Disappointing that you've not had helpful feedback from Genova. > > The "detoxigenomic profile" sounds as if it is completely different from the > "detoxification profile" despite the similarity of names. The former sounds > like a genetic test. These are fairly new and I think in some cases the > doctors are still learning how to interpret them. > > The detoxification profile is a much simpler test - it is a "challenge test" > involving drinking 3 different common substances - caffeine, aspirin and > paracetamol - and measuring how the body metabolised them by taking and > analysing a urine sample. Each substance is metabolised by a different > pathway. > > Liver metabolism is complex and there's quite a number of different sites > and books which try to describe it with varying success. They don't even > all agree fully on the different pathways. We've found Patrick Holford's > books are quite well explained. > > Ian > > _____ > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > furstc0404 > Sent: 15 September 2009 11:09 > To: [hidden email] > Subject: [eSens] Re: magnesium sulphate / cysteine conversion and test > > > > > > Hi Ian: > > Great Smokies Lab is now called Genova Diagnostics:http://www.gdx. > <http://www.gdx.uk.net/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1> > uk.net/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 > > I phoned them just now to ask about a test for measuring sulphate and > cysteine levels. According to the person I spoke to, they don't do this > test. > > I also asked if they had a document titled "Detoxification Profile > Application Guide" instead they have a sample report for the Detoxignomic > Profile. > > I did the Detoxigenomic Profile test and to date, no one has been able to > explain what some of it means in terms of liver function. > > For instance, my severe symptoms and inability to metabolize meds, vits and > supps, most foods, MCS, adverse reactions, allergies etc... appear to show > dysfunction in CYP3A4, yet there was a red asterisk by this. Looking at the > key at the bottom of the page, it was written "Multiple SNP locations were > evaluated for those genes." What does this mean? It does not show it to be > either dysfunctional. > > I asked several scientists, doctors, and others who had the test done, > including Genova Diagnostics to no avail. > > Polymorphisms were shown in 1B1 and 2C9, others with red asterisks as with > the CYP3A4. > > I already posted about the absent GTSM1 glutathione transferese and SOD > etc... > > The doctor I was seeing at the time, was convinced according to my severe > symptoms, that CYP3A4 would either be absent or dysfunctional. He contacted > the lab and asked about that, to date, no response. > > I am not sure how to proceed from here. > > Is there a good site explaining this in simple terms, am also interested in > reading about methylation pathways and sulphur. I already looked at some > sites including Van Konyenburg. > > Many thanks > > Kooky > > --- In eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Ian Kemp" > <ianandsue.kemp@> wrote: > > > > The test which measures both cysteine and sulphate levels is the "Plasma > > cysteine and sulphate" test. It cost about £100 (so could be $ 100-200 in > > North America). Sue's was sent to the European Laboratory of Nutrients, > > which seems to be linked to Diagnostics Inc in NJ, USA. I think Great > > Smokies Labs do a similar test. > > > > In Sue's case her cysteine levels were normal (or slightly high) whereas > her > > sulphate was way below the reference range, which is 1400-3000; when first > > tested she was down at about 250! She is now round the bottom end of the > > reference range, so her sulphate levels have gone up by a factor of x6. > > > > One of the best descriptions of liver detox in general is in the > > "Detoxification Profile Application Guide" from Great Smokies Laboratory. > > The sulphation pathway is the main metabolism route for a number of drugs, > > neurotransmitters and other substances. In particular, paracetamol is > > detoxified by this route, so is used as the basis of "challenge tests" to > > see if this pathway is working. > > > > Sulphur can be in organic forms in foods, including cysteine, methionine > and > > glutathione, which then undergo "sulphoxidation" to become inorganic > > sulphate which does the actual detoxification reaction. But it has been > > observed medically that some people have high cysteine levels and low > > sulphate levels, which suggests that the enzyme used for sulphoxidationis > > deficient. This has been observed particularly for patients with > > Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and motor neurone disease. These people do not > > benefit from cysteine supplementation (e.g. with MSM) and need inorganic > > sulphate (magnesium sulphate directly). High cysteine or "organic sulphur" > > levels might cause side-effects as you describe John, but I don't know > what > > these might be. Conversely, people where the sulphoxidation pathway and > > enzyme are working normally do fine with cysteine supplements. > > > > Certainly that was what we observed with Sue; MSM did not seem to help her > > at all but magnesium sulphate infusions gave a steady improvement. > > > > This is the snag with prescribing supplements based on general principles > > without doing tests; what benefits 90% of the population may be bad for > the > > person with MCS and ES who, by definition, has something unusual about > their > > metabolism somewhere. > > > > Ian > > > > _____ > > > > From: eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com > [mailto:eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf > Of > > johnottawa80 > > Sent: 14 September 2009 10:41 > > To: eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com > > Subject: [eSens] Re: magnesium sulphate > > > > > > > > > > > However in Sue's case we found her cysteine levels were OK but sulphate > > > appallingly low, so her body isn't doing the conversion process. > > > > Ian, > > what you write here about sulphur-to-sulphate-conversion is interesting. > > I have over the last couple of years developed tics (unvolunteer muscle > > contractions, or 'jerks'). It seems to increase when I eat > > sulphur-containing foods (like eggs, kale, onions). Could it perhaps be > that > > my abillity to convert sulphur to sulphate is very low? > > > > I still don't see how an 'accumulation' of sulphur (cystein etc.) would > > (biochemically) cause the tics though. > > Perhaps anybody has any ideas/explainations? > > > > Is it the liver which does the sulphur-to-sulphate conversion? > > Is this conversion perhaps a part of the sulphate detox pathway, or is > this > > two seperate processes? > > > > Ian, can you tell me what kind of test one should do to find out how the > > sulphate liver-detox pathway is functioning? (Name and lab.) > > Or perhaps there's another test which just measures sulphate and cysteine > in > > blood? > > > > James > > > Herriot, who wrote a very popular and entertaining series of books about > > > life as a vet (familar to UK readers but probably not in North America?) > > > described how, in the days before drugs, he successfully treated calves > > for > > > lead poisoning (caused by them licking old paint) using Epsom salts > > > > This is very interesting! > > So: Is it the Magnesium or the Sulphate which detoxifies lead? > > Is it perhaps the sulphate which makes the liver's ability to detoxify > lead > > increase? > > It is recommended by many 'experts' to eat cystein-rich foods (or take > > N-acetyl-cystein as a supplement) when dealing with heavy metal > > detoxification. I always thought that it was for the thiol-groups in > > cystein, which would have an affinity to e.g. mercury, but perhaps cystein > > is recommended because it (after first being converted to sulphate) > > increases the 'strength' of the sulphate-detox-pathway in the liver? > > If so, if one is low in sulphate, it seems crusial to get sulphate in > > supplement-form (epsom salts) in order to deal with > > heavy-metal-detoxification. > > Does anybody know more about this? > > > > Regards, > > John O. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > |
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In reply to this post by Ian Kemp
In a message dated 18/09/2009 08:57:33 GMT Daylight Time, [hidden email] writes: Some say that if a gene is dysfunctional, it can be switched on/off, but no one knows what happens if a gene is absent, as for instance GTSM glutathione transferase and -- SOD1, --SOD1, +- SOD2. Are Sue's similar? For now, it is best to go by my own reactions, share info and tips with others, and read up as you suggested. Will look up Patrick Holford's book on liver pathways. Paul UK - what about stem cell research for introducing missing gene factors ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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In reply to this post by furstc0404-2
Yes, in fact I remember now that Sue wasn't able to do the standard detox
profile test for very similar reasons - we knew by then she couldn't cope with caffeine or paracetamol - but we were at least able to get the helpful explanatory leaflet! Instead, we got at the information via various separate blood tests. These weren't genetic tests, they measured levels in the blood. Even then we needed the help of a doctor to interpret, because for some of the tests, a low result is more significant than in others. The sulphate was blindingly obvious - Sue was way below the recommended level - but on magnesium and glutathione, the results were low but not so obviously bad. However we were recommended to treat both and indeed it gave a major improvement in Sue's MCS and ES over a period of some months. Ian _____ From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of furstc0404 Sent: 18 September 2009 08:57 To: [hidden email] Subject: [eSens] Re: magnesium sulphate / cysteine conversion and test Thanks Ian: I was offered the Detox Profile. I am unable to do this test because I am too ill and unable to metabolize coffee (not drunk it for almost 10 years now), Aspirin and paracetamol. I can only "digest" and "metabolize" approx eight foods since 2002!! Liver pathways, enzymes, methylation, genomics, are in its infancy. Tests are difficult to interpret, protocols and criteria for testing are not yet defined. It will probably take quite a few years yet to define the human genome. Some say that if a gene is dysfunctional, it can be switched on/off, but no one knows what happens if a gene is absent, as for instance GTSM glutathione transferase and -- SOD1, --SOD1, +- SOD2. Are Sue's similar? For now, it is best to go by my own reactions, share info and tips with others, and read up as you suggested. Will look up Patrick Holford's book on liver pathways. --- In eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Ian Kemp" <ianandsue.kemp@...> wrote: > > Hi Kooky, > > Disappointing that you've not had helpful feedback from Genova. > > The "detoxigenomic profile" sounds as if it is completely different from the > "detoxification profile" despite the similarity of names. The former sounds > like a genetic test. These are fairly new and I think in some cases the > doctors are still learning how to interpret them. > > The detoxification profile is a much simpler test - it is a "challenge test" > involving drinking 3 different common substances - caffeine, aspirin and > paracetamol - and measuring how the body metabolised them by taking and > analysing a urine sample. Each substance is metabolised by a different > pathway. > > Liver metabolism is complex and there's quite a number of different sites > and books which try to describe it with varying success. They don't even > all agree fully on the different pathways. We've found Patrick Holford's > books are quite well explained. > > Ian > > _____ > > From: eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com Of > furstc0404 > Sent: 15 September 2009 11:09 > To: eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com > Subject: [eSens] Re: magnesium sulphate / cysteine conversion and test > > > > > > Hi Ian: > > Great Smokies Lab is now called Genova Diagnostics:http://www.gdx. > <http://www.gdx. uk.net/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1> > uk.net/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 > > I phoned them just now to ask about a test for measuring sulphate and > cysteine levels. According to the person I spoke to, they don't do this > test. > > I also asked if they had a document titled "Detoxification Profile > Application Guide" instead they have a sample report for the Detoxignomic > Profile. > > I did the Detoxigenomic Profile test and to date, no one has been able to > explain what some of it means in terms of liver function. > > For instance, my severe symptoms and inability to metabolize meds, vits > supps, most foods, MCS, adverse reactions, allergies etc... appear to show > dysfunction in CYP3A4, yet there was a red asterisk by this. Looking at the > key at the bottom of the page, it was written "Multiple SNP locations were > evaluated for those genes." What does this mean? It does not show it to be > either dysfunctional. > > I asked several scientists, doctors, and others who had the test done, > including Genova Diagnostics to no avail. > > Polymorphisms were shown in 1B1 and 2C9, others with red asterisks as with > the CYP3A4. > > I already posted about the absent GTSM1 glutathione transferese and SOD > etc... > > The doctor I was seeing at the time, was convinced according to my severe > symptoms, that CYP3A4 would either be absent or dysfunctional. He > the lab and asked about that, to date, no response. > > I am not sure how to proceed from here. > > Is there a good site explaining this in simple terms, am also interested in > reading about methylation pathways and sulphur. I already looked at some > sites including Van Konyenburg. > > Many thanks > > Kooky > > --- In eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Ian Kemp" > <ianandsue.kemp@> wrote: > > > > The test which measures both cysteine and sulphate levels is the "Plasma > > cysteine and sulphate" test. It cost about £100 (so could be $ 100-200 > > North America). Sue's was sent to the European Laboratory of Nutrients, > > which seems to be linked to Diagnostics Inc in NJ, USA. I think Great > > Smokies Labs do a similar test. > > > > In Sue's case her cysteine levels were normal (or slightly high) whereas > her > > sulphate was way below the reference range, which is 1400-3000; when first > > tested she was down at about 250! She is now round the bottom end of the > > reference range, so her sulphate levels have gone up by a factor of x6. > > > > One of the best descriptions of liver detox in general is in the > > "Detoxification Profile Application Guide" from Great Smokies Laboratory. > > The sulphation pathway is the main metabolism route for a number of drugs, > > neurotransmitters and other substances. In particular, paracetamol is > > detoxified by this route, so is used as the basis of "challenge tests" to > > see if this pathway is working. > > > > Sulphur can be in organic forms in foods, including cysteine, methionine > and > > glutathione, which then undergo "sulphoxidation" to become inorganic > > sulphate which does the actual detoxification reaction. But it has been > > observed medically that some people have high cysteine levels and low > > sulphate levels, which suggests that the enzyme used for sulphoxidation is > > deficient. This has been observed particularly for patients with > > Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and motor neurone disease. These people do not > > benefit from cysteine supplementation (e.g. with MSM) and need inorganic > > sulphate (magnesium sulphate directly). High cysteine or "organic sulphur" > > levels might cause side-effects as you describe John, but I don't know > what > > these might be. Conversely, people where the sulphoxidation pathway and > > enzyme are working normally do fine with cysteine supplements. > > > > Certainly that was what we observed with Sue; MSM did not seem to help her > > at all but magnesium sulphate infusions gave a steady improvement. > > > > This is the snag with prescribing supplements based on general principles > > without doing tests; what benefits 90% of the population may be bad for > the > > person with MCS and ES who, by definition, has something unusual about > their > > metabolism somewhere. > > > > Ian > > > > _____ > > > > From: eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com > [mailto:eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf > Of > > johnottawa80 > > Sent: 14 September 2009 10:41 > > To: eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com > > Subject: [eSens] Re: magnesium sulphate > > > > > > > > > > > However in Sue's case we found her cysteine levels were OK but > > > appallingly low, so her body isn't doing the conversion process. > > > > Ian, > > what you write here about sulphur-to-sulphate-conversion is interesting. > > I have over the last couple of years developed tics (unvolunteer muscle > > contractions, or 'jerks'). It seems to increase when I eat > > sulphur-containing foods (like eggs, kale, onions). Could it perhaps be > that > > my abillity to convert sulphur to sulphate is very low? > > > > I still don't see how an 'accumulation' of sulphur (cystein etc.) would > > (biochemically) cause the tics though. > > Perhaps anybody has any ideas/explainations? > > > > Is it the liver which does the sulphur-to-sulphate conversion? > > Is this conversion perhaps a part of the sulphate detox pathway, or is > this > > two seperate processes? > > > > Ian, can you tell me what kind of test one should do to find out how the > > sulphate liver-detox pathway is functioning? (Name and lab.) > > Or perhaps there's another test which just measures sulphate and > in > > blood? > > > > James > > > Herriot, who wrote a very popular and entertaining series of books about > > > life as a vet (familar to UK readers but probably not in North America?) > > > described how, in the days before drugs, he successfully treated calves > > for > > > lead poisoning (caused by them licking old paint) using Epsom salts > > > > This is very interesting! > > So: Is it the Magnesium or the Sulphate which detoxifies lead? > > Is it perhaps the sulphate which makes the liver's ability to detoxify > lead > > increase? > > It is recommended by many 'experts' to eat cystein-rich foods (or take > > N-acetyl-cystein as a supplement) when dealing with heavy metal > > detoxification. I always thought that it was for the thiol-groups in > > cystein, which would have an affinity to e.g. mercury, but perhaps > > is recommended because it (after first being converted to sulphate) > > increases the 'strength' of the sulphate-detox-pathway in the liver? > > If so, if one is low in sulphate, it seems crusial to get sulphate in > > supplement-form (epsom salts) in order to deal with > > heavy-metal-detoxification. > > Does anybody know more about this? > > > > Regards, > > John O. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
Re: magnesium sulphate / cysteine conversion and test
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In reply to this post by Ian Kemp
Hi Ian & everyone!
I don't understand why mainstream medicine just measures enzymes to figure if your liver is functioning or not. That's absurd. If your liver isn't functioning it may not make the enzymes which I believe is my case. I asked a specialist that & she didn't have a good answer. She said if there was a test for the pathways they couldn't do anything about it anyway. My detox profile from 2002 when I was functioning better than I am today, said Phase I was underfunctioning (P450) & SOD, glutitihione was depressed. Sulfation, glycination, & glucaronidation were all below reference range. I had liver alert 7 years ago but mainstream medicine just does the simple blood test & no enzymes: Your liver is fine! I'm very frustrated with this. Loni --- On Thu, 9/17/09, Ian Kemp <[hidden email]> wrote: From: Ian Kemp <[hidden email]> Subject: RE: [eSens] Re: magnesium sulphate / cysteine conversion and test To: [hidden email] Date: Thursday, September 17, 2009, 4:18 PM Hi Kooky, Disappointing that you've not had helpful feedback from Genova. The "detoxigenomic profile" sounds as if it is completely different from the "detoxification profile" despite the similarity of names. The former sounds like a genetic test. These are fairly new and I think in some cases the doctors are still learning how to interpret them. The detoxification profile is a much simpler test - it is a "challenge test" involving drinking 3 different common substances - caffeine, aspirin and paracetamol - and measuring how the body metabolised them by taking and analysing a urine sample. Each substance is metabolised by a different pathway. Liver metabolism is complex and there's quite a number of different sites and books which try to describe it with varying success. They don't even all agree fully on the different pathways. We've found Patrick Holford's books are quite well explained. Ian _____ From: eSens@yahoogroups. com [mailto:eSens@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of furstc0404 Sent: 15 September 2009 11:09 To: eSens@yahoogroups. com Subject: [eSens] Re: magnesium sulphate / cysteine conversion and test Hi Ian: Great Smokies Lab is now called Genova Diagnostics:http://www.gdx. <http://www.gdx. uk.net/index. php?option= com_frontpage& Itemid=1> uk.net/index. php?option= com_frontpage& Itemid=1 I phoned them just now to ask about a test for measuring sulphate and cysteine levels. According to the person I spoke to, they don't do this test. I also asked if they had a document titled "Detoxification Profile Application Guide" instead they have a sample report for the Detoxignomic Profile. I did the Detoxigenomic Profile test and to date, no one has been able to explain what some of it means in terms of liver function. For instance, my severe symptoms and inability to metabolize meds, vits and supps, most foods, MCS, adverse reactions, allergies etc... appear to show dysfunction in CYP3A4, yet there was a red asterisk by this. Looking at the key at the bottom of the page, it was written "Multiple SNP locations were evaluated for those genes." What does this mean? It does not show it to be either dysfunctional. I asked several scientists, doctors, and others who had the test done, including Genova Diagnostics to no avail. Polymorphisms were shown in 1B1 and 2C9, others with red asterisks as with the CYP3A4. I already posted about the absent GTSM1 glutathione transferese and SOD etc... The doctor I was seeing at the time, was convinced according to my severe symptoms, that CYP3A4 would either be absent or dysfunctional. He contacted the lab and asked about that, to date, no response. I am not sure how to proceed from here. Is there a good site explaining this in simple terms, am also interested in reading about methylation pathways and sulphur. I already looked at some sites including Van Konyenburg. Many thanks Kooky --- In eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens% 40yahoogroups. com> com, "Ian Kemp" <ianandsue.kemp@ ...> wrote: > > The test which measures both cysteine and sulphate levels is the "Plasma > cysteine and sulphate" test. It cost about £100 (so could be $ 100-200 in > North America). Sue's was sent to the European Laboratory of Nutrients, > which seems to be linked to Diagnostics Inc in NJ, USA. I think Great > Smokies Labs do a similar test. > > In Sue's case her cysteine levels were normal (or slightly high) whereas her > sulphate was way below the reference range, which is 1400-3000; when first > tested she was down at about 250! She is now round the bottom end of the > reference range, so her sulphate levels have gone up by a factor of x6. > > One of the best descriptions of liver detox in general is in the > "Detoxification Profile Application Guide" from Great Smokies Laboratory. > The sulphation pathway is the main metabolism route for a number of drugs, > neurotransmitters and other substances. In particular, paracetamol is > detoxified by this route, so is used as the basis of "challenge tests" to > see if this pathway is working. > > Sulphur can be in organic forms in foods, including cysteine, methionine > glutathione, which then undergo "sulphoxidation" to become inorganic > sulphate which does the actual detoxification reaction. But it has been > observed medically that some people have high cysteine levels and low > sulphate levels, which suggests that the enzyme used for sulphoxidation is > deficient. This has been observed particularly for patients with > Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and motor neurone disease. These people do not > benefit from cysteine supplementation (e.g. with MSM) and need inorganic > sulphate (magnesium sulphate directly). High cysteine or "organic sulphur" > levels might cause side-effects as you describe John, but I don't know what > these might be. Conversely, people where the sulphoxidation pathway and > enzyme are working normally do fine with cysteine supplements. > > Certainly that was what we observed with Sue; MSM did not seem to help her > at all but magnesium sulphate infusions gave a steady improvement. > > This is the snag with prescribing supplements based on general principles > without doing tests; what benefits 90% of the population may be bad for the > person with MCS and ES who, by definition, has something unusual about their > metabolism somewhere. > > Ian > > _____ > > From: eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens% 40yahoogroups. com> com [mailto:eSens@ yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens% 40yahoogroups. com> com] On Behalf Of > johnottawa80 > Sent: 14 September 2009 10:41 > To: eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens% 40yahoogroups. com> com > Subject: [eSens] Re: magnesium sulphate > > > > > > However in Sue's case we found her cysteine levels were OK but sulphate > > appallingly low, so her body isn't doing the conversion process. > > Ian, > what you write here about sulphur-to-sulphate -conversion is interesting. > I have over the last couple of years developed tics (unvolunteer muscle > contractions, or 'jerks'). It seems to increase when I eat > sulphur-containing foods (like eggs, kale, onions). Could it perhaps be > my abillity to convert sulphur to sulphate is very low? > > I still don't see how an 'accumulation' of sulphur (cystein etc.) would > (biochemically) cause the tics though. > Perhaps anybody has any ideas/explainations ? > > Is it the liver which does the sulphur-to-sulphate conversion? > Is this conversion perhaps a part of the sulphate detox pathway, or is this > two seperate processes? > > Ian, can you tell me what kind of test one should do to find out how the > sulphate liver-detox pathway is functioning? (Name and lab.) > Or perhaps there's another test which just measures sulphate and cysteine in > blood? > > James > > Herriot, who wrote a very popular and entertaining series of books about > > life as a vet (familar to UK readers but probably not in North America?) > > described how, in the days before drugs, he successfully treated calves > for > > lead poisoning (caused by them licking old paint) using Epsom salts > > This is very interesting! > So: Is it the Magnesium or the Sulphate which detoxifies lead? > Is it perhaps the sulphate which makes the liver's ability to detoxify > increase? > It is recommended by many 'experts' to eat cystein-rich foods (or take > N-acetyl-cystein as a supplement) when dealing with heavy metal > detoxification. I always thought that it was for the thiol-groups in > cystein, which would have an affinity to e.g. mercury, but perhaps cystein > is recommended because it (after first being converted to sulphate) > increases the 'strength' of the sulphate-detox- pathway in the liver? > If so, if one is low in sulphate, it seems crusial to get sulphate in > supplement-form (epsom salts) in order to deal with > heavy-metal- detoxification. > Does anybody know more about this? > > Regards, > John O. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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