Why do so many treatments just make this illness worse?!

Wired doorbells ALWAYS have a transformer (they work on low voltage). So the
transformer should be located well away form living spaces.

Emil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Martin" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [eSens] electrical outlets, lighting fixtures, electronic
doorbells


> So any
> fixture would be as good ES wise? Or are there other considerations I am
> missing?

As long as the fixture isn't too cheaply made (so that the electrical
contacts
are all secure), and as long as it doesn't have any dimming features, and
as long as it uses a regular incandescent bulb, it should be okay...

> On a different note... are electronic doorbells ok?

Seems like a wired doorbell should be okay... maybe not for the
ultra-sensitive...

Marc

In a message dated 30/09/2009 13:39:43 GMT Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:

On a different note... are electronic doorbells ok?

Seems like a wired doorbell should be okay... maybe not for the
ultra-sensitive.ul

Marc



Paul UK REPLIES - I have a wireless door bell and get not problem from
this, I have had people question me given my ES wether it is advisable but
unless they can press that bell 217 a second I dont have any problems, lets
face it its a very small fleeting signal, I would rather this type than a
wired type that could conduct dirty power etc, why noy go for a direct battery
power one if there is a worry either way.

puk


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Marc,
 
Hmmm, I will check that out at our Lowe's and see if it is the same here.  You are likely right that what my electrician would be using is a standard item from an electrical supply store.  What surprises me tho is that neither my electrician or Spark B knew these other outlets exist!  Thanks, Marc. 
 
Diane

--- On Tue, 9/29/09, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] electrical outlets, lighting fixtures, electronic doorbells
To: [hidden email]
Date: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 9:33 PM


 



> Anyway, apparently now
> all residential outlets are the same here and all cost about $1.

Maybe that is true at your electrician' s supply store, but when
I went to the local hardware mega-store (Home Depot, Lowes), there
were different outlets at different prices, with the more expensive
outlets supposedly better built.

Marc
















     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks again, Marc,
 
I was told by Spark no dimmers are to be used and only incandescents.  (Which I already knew, but forgot others here might not know.)  I had NOT thought about the secure electrical connections.  Thanks for pointing thatout. 
 
Re the door bell.... the current one is wired and I was just trying to decide whether to keep it.  I guess I will; if it bothers me later I will deal with it then.
 
Thanks again for the info,
Diane

--- On Wed, 9/30/09, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] electrical outlets, lighting fixtures, electronic doorbells
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 1:23 AM


 



> So any
> fixture would be as good ES wise?  Or are there other considerations I am
> missing? 

As long as the fixture isn't too cheaply made (so that the electrical contacts
are all secure), and as long as it doesn't have any dimming features, and
as long as it uses a regular incandescent bulb, it should be okay...

> On a different note...  are electronic doorbells ok?

Seems like a wired doorbell should be okay... maybe not for the ultra-sensitive. ..

Marc
















     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, Emil,
 
Thanks for the info!  I did not know this.  Okay; bell coming out.  lol
 
Thanks so much,
Diane

--- On Wed, 9/30/09, lessemf.com <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: lessemf.com <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] electrical outlets, lighting fixtures, electronic doorbells
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 8:37 AM


 



Wired doorbells ALWAYS have a transformer (they work on low voltage). So the
transformer should be located well away form living spaces.

Emil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Martin" <marc@ufoseries. com>
To: <eSens@yahoogroups. com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [eSens] electrical outlets, lighting fixtures, electronic
doorbells

> So any
> fixture would be as good ES wise? Or are there other considerations I am
> missing?

As long as the fixture isn't too cheaply made (so that the electrical
contacts
are all secure), and as long as it doesn't have any dimming features, and
as long as it uses a regular incandescent bulb, it should be okay...

> On a different note... are electronic doorbells ok?

Seems like a wired doorbell should be okay... maybe not for the
ultra-sensitive. ..

Marc

















     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for your input, Paul.  I think I will opt for no bell.  I will look into the battery one later.
 
Hope things are going well with you,
Diane

--- On Wed, 9/30/09, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] electrical outlets, lighting fixtures, electronic doorbells
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 8:44 AM


 




In a message dated 30/09/2009 13:39:43 GMT Daylight Time,
lessemf@lessemf. com writes:

On a different note... are electronic doorbells ok?

Seems like a wired doorbell should be okay... maybe not for the
ultra-sensitive. ul

Marc

Paul UK REPLIES - I have a wireless door bell and get not problem from
this, I have had people question me given my ES wether it is advisable but
unless they can press that bell 217 a second I dont have any problems, lets
face it its a very small fleeting signal, I would rather this type than a
wired type that could conduct dirty power etc, why noy go for a direct battery
power one if there is a worry either way.

puk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

















     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mike and Angela,
 
I am so sorry to hear the problems you have had and are having with your electric company!  I well expected to have to jump thru dozens of hoops to get approved to make our changes.  (And put up with alot of psycho grief--I mean the electrical co pushing the idea that my ES problem is in my head.)  I was so pleasantly surprised.  That is so disheartening when youwant to do something which makes very little difference to others but sucha huge difference to you and you can get zero cooperation.  I hope we start seeing great changes in our favor soon in this country.  (And everywhere.) 
 
Wish you both the best,
Diane

--- On Tue, 9/29/09, angela england <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: angela england <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] electrical outlets and exhaust fans and more
To: [hidden email]
Date: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 12:49 PM


 



Diane, That is very encouraging news about a kinder, gentler electric co. Ihave tried twice to get the meter on the street and underground wiring to the house. Either the electricians are flakes or the electric co. says the city fire dept. wont allow it. I guess it is time to call them directly. Onanother note, I did confront the electric co. about radio transmitting meters and they admitted that fact. They would not replace my meter with a regular one to be read by a human, but they did allow me to replace the meter with a prepaid kind, in which i have a debit card and go buy credits, then swipe the card on a m power credit reading box in the home. I learned to swipe the credits and then disconnect this credit reader, because it in itself emits radio waves. We think this meter is better, but it is too early. The electric co. is SRP in Phoenix metro area, if this helps any. Mike

--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Evie <evie15422@yahoo. com> wrote:

















     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Hmmm, I will check that out at our Lowe's and see if it is the same
> here. You are likely right that what my electrician would be using is
> a standard item from an electrical supply store.  What surprises me
> tho is that neither my electrician or Spark B knew these other
> outlets exist!

I just found the box for the more expensive outlets I purchased at the
hardware store. They are from LEVITON, and are called "Heavy Duty
Backwire Outlets", which is part of their "ProGrade" line. This reminds
me -- when the outlets are connected to the wiring, some outlets use a
spring-loaded insert hole, while others have a screw that you can secure
the wire to the outlet (and some have both options). You should always
use the screw, as it should make the outlet less "flaky" (noisy)
electrically if there is a firm connection between the wire and the
outlet. Or so I was told... :-)

Marc

My understanding is that with isolated ground outlets you pay about $8 more
because it is orange. But you are then allowed to put it on its own ground
rod...
if you have a real good ground farm you can go to putting all the ground
wires
to that... there's a name for the system, I think TT in Europe. Well it
might
be an advantage but only for some appliances.

Getting rid of all ground loops is worth doing. Just keep all the ground
wires
separate until they get to the panel, just like the neutrals.

I tend to agree with Marc that if you use screw terminals then any outlet
should be OK. Switches can also be bad. Check with the AM radio for
buzz when on (but you also could get buzz from dirty power at the
transformer
when the current flows).

If the power company guy is super friendly, ask if you can get your own
transformer,
and even better wire your side as Delta, grounding the neutral to the ground
rod
at the transformer but not grounding the high voltage neutral there, so no
current
can flow around the transformer. I imagine it's illegal unless you're on a
Delta system,
and most places are Wye.

The best range hood is to put the blower up in the attic... Fantek or
Fantech makes such
fans. Vent-a-hood is possibly next best... pretty expensive. I went with
the top of the line
NuTone ("Premium") which is usable, but only with the fan on low and/or the
light on Hi.
It doesn't clear the air very well, although my vent geometry isn't ideal
either. It was pretty
hard to install, but is fairly compact.

Panasonic bathroom fans are pretty good except for the lights which are
fluorscent
(not sure about the ones with heaters... doesn't seem like a good place for
a heater,
but if you really need one OK). Mine has no light or heater. Good
installation is important,
and our 'Pro' installer blew it. The instructions are good but usually
these guys don't
read them and assume it's like every other fan they've installed. You want
4" duct, not
3" if at all possible. Again Fantech is the best approach if you have an
attic.
You can also buy rooftop fans.

If you are putting in new wires try to use the round 3-conductor romex
because it's twisted.
There is also 12-2-2 romex which has 4 conductors and is twisted... you can
run 2 circuits or
split one circuit to get better cancellation. If you run 2 circuits on
opposite phases you get
E-field cancellation. Or go with metal conduit (NMT or rigid, not flex) and
have the wires inside
twisted in pairs (hot+neutral, by drill) and use all compression fittings to
help shield the RF.

Do a search on "ES engineer" to find more advice from Bruce.

In my house part of the problem is the chicken wire under the stucco is
connected to
the neutral. This may be required by code.

Congrats on getting the meter away from the house. You might consider
having the breakers
out there in a weatherproof locked panel... although if the panel isn't
right by an important living
area I might leave it alone. The ultimate is to try to get filters on the
power at the meter.
Genisco makes the best ones, I think they are only 35A each, so you need
several, and I
haven't even asked the price because I know I can't afford them. You want
someone who knows what they're doing (I don't).

The other thing, with the friendly power company guy... ask if the neutral
wires are on the
small side in your neighborhood. Getting bigger lines will reduce ground
current, all else
being equal.

Converting the whole town to Delta would be a big plus. They might have to
add some filters
because the ground does help filter high frequencies off the wires, but puts
them in the
ground and they still affect us en route.... I think saving on filtering is
why the power company
likes Wye (probably not any safer, though they claim it is).

Best,
Bill


On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Evie <[hidden email]> wrote:


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Marc!
 
Spark B was hoping you could pin down the ones you used.  I didn't think you probably knew because this was years ago when I remembered you first mentioned it!  He wanted to check them out because he said the isolated ground outlets are much more expensive (and maybe you stumbled onto something better, which it sounds like you did!)
 
Thanks so much for this info.  It should be very helpful.
Diane

--- On Thu, 10/1/09, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] electrical outlets
To: [hidden email]
Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 10:01 PM


 



> Hmmm, I will check that out at our Lowe's and see if it is the same
> here. You are likely right that what my electrician would be using is
> a standard item from an electrical supply store.  What surprises me
> tho is that neither my electrician or Spark B knew these other
> outlets exist!

I just found the box for the more expensive outlets I purchased at the
hardware store. They are from LEVITON, and are called "Heavy Duty
Backwire Outlets", which is part of their "ProGrade" line. This reminds
me -- when the outlets are connected to the wiring, some outlets use a
spring-loaded insert hole, while others have a screw that you can secure
the wire to the outlet (and some have both options). You should always
use the screw, as it should make the outlet less "flaky" (noisy)
electrically if there is a firm connection between the wire and the
outlet. Or so I was told... :-)

Marc
















     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wow, Bill!
 
You sent me the mother-lode of very valuable info!  Thanks so much.  This must have taken forever to write!
 
You wrote:
“My understanding is that with isolated ground outlets you pay about $8 more
because it is orange. But you are then allowed to put it on its own ground
rod...if you have a real good ground farm you can go to putting all the ground
wires to that... there's a name for the system, I think TT in Europe. Well it
might be an advantage but only for some appliances.”
 
My reply:  Well, it didn’t sound this complicated, but Spark Bdidn’t think it was worth doing, either.  That was why he wanted to know exactly what Marc used.

You wrote:
”If the power company guy is super friendly, ask if you can get your own
transformer, and even better wire your side as Delta, grounding the neutralto the ground
rod at the transformer but not grounding the high voltage neutral there, sono
current can flow around the transformer. I imagine it's illegal unless you're on a
Delta system, and most places are Wye.”
My reply:  Thanks, Bill.  I will ask!
You wrote:  ”Again Fantech is the best approach if you have an
attic.  You can also buy rooftop fans.”
My reply:  Our house has a shallow “ranch style” roof.  And the range is located on the far end of the house, so it would betight working there.  Probably the roof-top fan would work better.  Thanks for all the stellar info, Bill!  I would have never come upwith all these ideas on my own!

You wrote:  “If you are putting in new wires try to use the round 3-conductor romex
because it's twisted.  There is also 12-2-2 romex which has 4 conductors and is twisted... you can
run 2 circuits or split one circuit to get better cancellation. If you run 2 circuits on
opposite phases you get E-field cancellation. Or go with metal conduit (NMTor rigid, not flex) and
have the wires inside twisted in pairs (hot+neutral, by drill) and use all compression fittings to
help shield the RF.”
My reply:  We are going with a “4 wire” twisted “HCF metal clad armored cabling” to my understanding.  I don’t yet know more than that.  Would this be the 12-2-2 romex with 4 conductors??? 

You wrote:  “Congrats on getting the meter away from the house. You might consider
having the breakers out there in a weatherproof locked panel... although ifthe panel isn't
right by an important living area I might leave it alone.”
My reply:  Thanks.  Right now the meter is on the living room wall and the breaker panel in the basement just under it.  We are moving the breaker panel to the far side of the garage (another 25 feet away).  I hadn’t thought of putting the panel at the street!  Sparkalso has recommended that all the utilities enter in approx 4 feet from the electric entrance, and so we are working towards underground utilities (we probably can’t afford that now, but we are setting up so it can be done in the future) with all utilities coming in from the new pole we areerecting at the far end of our drive.   

You wrote:  “The other thing, with the friendly power company guy... ask if the neutral
wires are on the small side in your neighborhood. Getting bigger lines willreduce ground
current, all else being equal.”
My reply:  I think we discussed this and the lines are bigger.  Ithought (due to my lack of knowledge in this area) that was a negative, not a plus.  Thanks for explaining it--I understand now what was meant.

You wrote:  “Converting the whole town to Delta would be a bigplus. They might have to
add some filters because the ground does help filter high frequencies off the wires, but puts
them in the ground and they still affect us en route.... I think saving on filtering is
why the power company likes Wye (probably not any safer, though they claim it is).”
My reply:  lol  Well the electrical power company guy was friendly, but I doubt that friendly!  ;)  If I get to talk to him again I will ask whether our town is using Delta or Wye.  I was teasing, butI know what you mean.  There is still room for improvement and that would be a plus for everyone.
Thanks again, Bill, for all the great advise and info!  I really appreciate your help.
Diane

















     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> My reply: We are going with a “4 wire” twisted “HCF metal clad armored
> cabling” to my understanding. I don’t yet know more than that. Would this
> be the 12-2-2 romex with 4 conductors???
>





Romex is usually short for NM, meaning non-metalic. Your metal clad has
a flexible metal sheath. I've heard, I think, that metal cladding is not RF
tight
so it doesn't give that benefit. I does block the 60 Hz electric field, and
that
could make a difference. The RF shielding would be pointless anyway if the
main
RF on the lines is from the neighbors, unless you have an isolated ground.
If you need to run your own dirty power electronics then getting them into
real conduit should be attempted if you have the chance. But it can be a
lot
more involved.



> the street! Spark also has recommended that all the utilities enter in
> approx 4 feet from the electric entrance, and so we are working towards
> underground utilities (we probably can’t afford that now, but we are setting
> up so it can be done in the future) with all utilities coming in from the
> new pole we are erecting at the far end of our drive. **
>


> *It is good to have them all come in close together, but actually that's
> not really necessary if you keep current off of them, i.e., for plumbing and
> gas, add a short section of plastic pex tubing (for gas, a dielectric
> union). Phone and cable that won't work though. What you want to do is
> minimize the loop area of any ground currents, so you want them to trace the
> same route getting to your house ideally.
> *
>


i








> *Actually here's the next question to ask the guy... when's the last time
> they rebalanced the loads in the neigborhood? Ideally have them try to
> balance the loads at the time of day when you most want your fields low.
> This is something they do to not waste energy, but it also reduces ground
> current (assuming you're on Wye).*
> Thanks again, Bill, for all the great advise and info! I really appreciate
> your help.
>


>
> Diane
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I forgot to bring up the possibility of a 3 phase shut-off. If you want to
get off the
grid temporarily, it solves a lot of problems (except the food in the fridge
spoiling).

There are 3-phase switches for a regular wall switch, but they cost over $50
here.

A 200-amp 3-phase switch would be nice at the meter or inside at the breaker
panel.
The point is to try to even disconnect the neutral wire, before it is bonded
to the ground
(otherwise you'd need 4 phase, which I don't think exists).

It may be easier to get a 200amp 3-phase breaker than just a switch. Check
with an
electrician on the safety of using this in a non-3-phase home. I think it's
OK but not
positive. Whether it's code approved is another matter.

Bill


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Bill,
 
I think we have been talking with Spark and our electrician about doing this.  The one you are talking about is not a switch in your rooms but at the breaker box or meter!  Charles mentioned awhile back that the switches in the rooms caused a magnetic field buildup (if I understood correctly) and recommended a remote control instead, but you mean there is a switch that could remove your whole house from the grid at the meter.  This clears up something I had not understood when I was talking to our electrician.  I thought he was talking about using the switches in each room.
 
Thanks so much for all the info,
Diane

--- On Sat, 10/3/09, Bill Bruno <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Bill Bruno <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] electrical outlets and exhaust fans and more
To: [hidden email]
Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 2:19 PM


 



I forgot to bring up the possibility of a 3 phase shut-off. If you want to
get off the
grid temporarily, it solves a lot of problems (except the food in the fridge
spoiling).

There are 3-phase switches for a regular wall switch, but they cost over $50
here.

A 200-amp 3-phase switch would be nice at the meter or inside at the breaker
panel.
The point is to try to even disconnect the neutral wire, before it is bonded
to the ground
(otherwise you'd need 4 phase, which I don't think exists).

It may be easier to get a 200amp 3-phase breaker than just a switch. Check
with an
electrician on the safety of using this in a non-3-phase home. I think it's
OK but not
positive. Whether it's code approved is another matter.

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

















     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Bill,

for this info. I don't think I will be adding dirty electricity to the system, since I am still an advocate of pulling plugs and I am pretty low tech. I had wanted to add a hydroponics system (I had one in my old home) to grow my own herbs and veggies during the winter. Organic produce is pricey and there is no telling how long it has been enroute before you get it. But alas, short of pulling out and taking my old wired-in lights with me, Spark says the new hydroponics lights will contaminate everything. I had a 25yo full spectrum flourescent system in my old house. It didn't bother me unless the ballasts or tubes went bad. (But the ballasts are so old I couldn't likely replace them now if they did go bad in the future and the flourescents now all operate at more noxious frequencies.) I guess my herbs andveggies will have to be grown only in the summer now! Bummer. Maybe I can hit the lottery (even tho I don't play lol) and someday have a
building for growing veggies on a separate electrical grid. I keep dreaming....

Thanks again, Bill, for all your help. I really appreciate your time and expertise. And thanks to all of you, too, for your support on this,
Diane
 
--- On Fri, 10/2/09, Bill Bruno <[hidden email]> wrote: