carpet

On October 13, torch369 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I thought negative ion generators clean the air, like what happens after
> a rainstorm. As long as it doesn't produce ozone.
> Steve

In my experience, ion generators do nothing about odors
and VOCs.  You need ozone for that.  

However, ion generators (even the kind without fans)
caused a "prickly" ES sensation on my skin, so I
abandoned using them altogether (plus they blackened
my walls and furniture).  I have no problem with ozone
in small amounts (the same amounts found outdoors).

Marc

*Dirty power* is known as dirty frequencies in the mains electricity net.

*Dirty air* are dirty frequencies floating in the air. Between 5kHz and as high as 30MHz!

They are transmitted by electrical appliances, wall sockets, and even are present in grounding cables.
I measure them in the ground!

That is the reason why some electrosensitives do feel worse after they have applied shielding paint.
Because thiss paint must be grounded, but the grounding cable just picks up these frequencies.

Greetings,
Charles Claessens
member Verband Baubiologie
www.milieuziektes.nl
www.milieuziektes.be
www.hetbitje.nl
checked by Emsisoft


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Auntie Patricia
  To: [hidden email]
  Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 9:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [eSens] negative ion generators are not all equal


  what do you mean by 'dirty air', charles?  
  'dirty air' to me is chemtrails and mold and
  smoke and perfumes, etc.  

  i find that my air is far cleaner with NIGs.
  when they are accidentally turned off, the
  building odors are noticeable.  when they are
  turned on, the air is clean and clear.  visitors
  comment on how clean the air is.  have you
  lived with ALL negative ion generators?  
  have you seen a demo with smoke in the air?
  and so on and so forth.  what is your actual
  experience with them?  and what is your
  business?  

  as i said before, there are no moving parts
  in mine and it does not put out measurable
  EMF... but a NIG with a fan might put out
  EMF - and i have measured them doing so.    

  patricia


  On Oct 12, 2012, at 11:56 PM, charles wrote:

  > ALL negative ion generators do produce what I call *dirty air*.
  >
  > So they should be avoided.
  >
  > Greetings,
  > Charles Claessens
  > member Verband Baubiologie
  > www.milieuziektes.nl
  > www.milieuziektes.be
  > www.hetbitje.nl
  > checked by Emsisoft
  >
  >  ----- Original Message -----
  >  From: Auntie Patricia
  >  To: [hidden email]
  >  Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 9:24 PM
  >  Subject: [eSens] negative ion generators are not all equal
  >
  >
  >  puk, thanks for the info and for helping me
  >  clarify something for myself...  
  >
  >  does yours have a fan?  
  >  i have some with fans and one without.
  >  the ones with fan DO measure high in EMF...
  >  the one without a fan measures the same
  >  as the ambient room EMF, no matter where
  >  i hold my EMF meter.  
  >
  >  this is the one i have ...
  >  http://www.negativeiongenerators.com/roomionizers.html
  >  hmm... i think the price has not changed
  >  since i bought mine ten years ago.  
  >  i put this in the center of my home and
  >  it works well.  i think i'll get rid of the
  >  others, now that i am clear that fans
  >  are not good to mix with EMF.  
  >
  >  thanks.  
  >  patricia
  >
  >
  >  On Oct 12, 2012, at 3:53 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
  >
  >> I find that the mains powered air purifiers can give off high levels of EMR
  >> and dirty power so they negate the clean air benefit for me, unless you
  >> can get  a whole house system where the fan unit and electronics are well away
  >> from the  inhabited parts of the house and even then the unit should be
  >> filtered for dirty  power influx to your mains wiring
  >>
  >> puk
  >
  >
  >  ------------------------------------
  >
  >  Yahoo! Groups Links
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  >
  > ------------------------------------
  >
  > Yahoo! Groups Links
  >
  >
  >
  >




  ------------------------------------

  Yahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On October 13, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> In my experience, ion generators do nothing about odors
> and VOCs.  You need ozone for that.  

I guess I should clarify that... most negative ion
generators create 2 things:

  -- negative ions (as advertised)
  -- ozone (byproduct)

The negative ions cause airborne particles to fall out
of the air.  The ozone destroys odors, VOCs, and creates
a "fresh air" smell.  

Meanwhile, everyone demonizes ozone as some terrible,
toxic thing, when in fact when you go outside and
smell "fresh air", what you area really smelling is
ozone.  Consumer ozone generators can cause people
problems when the amounts of ozone they generate is far
beyond what is found in nature, and also when there
are non-ozone byproducts (e.g, nitric oxide).

Marc

Thanks Charles, that's probably really good advice in a dry climate.
 However I want to point out that in Seattle or anywhere damp, that sounds
like a mold problem waiting to happen.  Which can definitely affect the
immune system and everything, and make ES symptoms worse.

Amanda



 Re: carpet<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eSens/message/28059;_ylc=X3oDMTJzc2w2ZTI4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExOTc5MzA0BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2MjIxNQRtc2dJZAMyODA1OQRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMzUwMTM5MTQ1>
Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:59 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "charles"
bitje2005<[hidden email]?subject=Re%3A%20carpet>
Carpets may also belong to the big family of elektrosmog.

They may contain static CD electrical fields.

Sometimes it may help when a bit moisture is added.

Greetings,
Charles Claessens
member Verband Baubiologie
www.milieuziektes.**nl
www.milieuziektes.**be
www.hetbitje.**nl
checked by Emsisoft


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yes, it is the metal against metal that makes fans emit
high EMF.
i was experimenting yesterday in my car.  each time i
hit the brakes, the meter beeped.
the fan for my computer is in the bottom of the screen...
also the hard drive that whirrrs.  that's where the high
emf also resides...  motion + metal = problem.
the NIG that has no moving parts is different, apparently.
i'll use that one and only that one, now that i am clear
on the concept.  :)
patricia


On Oct 13, 2012, at 3:12 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> i wouldn't be surprised if fans literally throw off electrons just as they
> disperse air

i wonder if if is the prickly feeling was due to the
particles being zapped out of the air?  i used to
live on a street in san francisco that a bus drove
down several times a day.  i liked to keep my
window open because MOST of the time i could
hear the ocean and watch the waves come in
and only a LITTLE bit of the time, the bus came
by.  my wall was BLACK behind the leg of the
table where my NIG sat on the floor... so i
agree that a non-motor NIG will do that.  i was
grateful to it for saving my lungs from the black
that went on the wall.  maybe we're talking
'glass half full' and 'glass half empty' at each
other.  :)  i prefer to have the particles zapped
out of the air.  and i don't personally feel prickly.  
?  


On Oct 13, 2012, at 7:49 AM, Marc Martin wrote:

good distinction, marc.
ozone is one thing...
negative ions are another.  
i use an ozonator at my home too.
it emits a GREAT DEAL of EMF.  
but it purifies my drinking water and i appreciate that.  

i do not smell ozone around my NIG that has no
moving parts... but i do around a NIG that has a fan.  
and i feel 'prickly' around it.  it stings my nose and
eyes.  so i don't run it when i am in the room.  

and what i am figuring is that the negative ions ZAP
(somehow throw to the earth) particulate matter -
which also may be perceived as odor because you
smell things that are lingering in the air...  i saw a
demo once - a glass dome was filled with cigarette
smoke.  the NIG button was pushed and the smoke
fell to the ground.  i used NIGs when i had new
carpet put in my home.  took a day or two and then
everything was fine.  of course, i wasn't living there,
just preparing the place, so i could run the NIGs
all day long.  they were from 'the sharper image' -
two tall towers.  

whither i go, my NIG goes with me...
and now i know only to ever buy ones that have no
fans.  
:)  thanks to this list.  :)  

so yes, absolutely, you don't want to LIVE near a
NIG... you want it to do its work apart from your
immediate living area.  i had the 'no-fan' NIG on
the bannister above my living room, kitchen, dining
area, and it covered that area, plus the top floor
where my office, bedroom and bathroom were.

i had another NIG (with fan) in the living room,
and i turned it off when i had company.  i also
closed the doors of my bedroom at night with no
NIG in it.  i guess it takes a bit of getting used to...
where to put them, when to use them.  i've been
happily using them for about 35 years.  my first had
no fan.  it was a very good friend.  

patricia  


On Oct 13, 2012, at 8:02 AM, Marc Martin wrote:

I've seen that happen before also with the walls but the one mentioned in that link comes with a dust grabber built in and they say it shouldn't be a problem. There are also different types of generators. That site has a money back guarantee so I may try it.
They also have something call Air Oasis which is more for odors and VOCs and it has photocatalytic plus ion. It gives off a little ozone but they say the levels are safe. I'm very sensitivie though so I would only run it when I'm not there if I decided to try it as well.
I have a Blueair air purifier right now which does use ionizers but no ozone. It's made of metal which is good for my MCS but the filters absolutely stink, which kind of negates the MCS properties. It doesn't seem to clean out much dust either. Looking for a replacement.
Steve

--- In [hidden email], Marc Martin <marc@...> wrote:

Marc, You said:
 However, ion generators (even the kind without fans)
> caused a "prickly" ES sensation on my skin, so I
> abandoned using them altogether (plus they blackened
> my walls and furniture).  Why/how did the ion generators blacken the walls? Lizzie


>





   
     

   
   






       

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On October 14, Elizabeth thode <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Marc, You said:
> > However, ion generators (even the kind without fans)
> > caused a "prickly" ES sensation on my skin, so I
> > abandoned using them altogether (plus they blackened
> > my walls and furniture).  
>
> Why/how did the ion generators blacken the walls? Lizzie

All those particles that the negative ion generators remove
from the air have to go somewhere -- unfortunately, they
usually end up on a wall or a couch that's next to the
generator.  And that stuff's seemingly impossible to
remove (we eventually through away the couch, repainted
the walls, and banned negative ion generators from the
house).

Marc

Who would have thought....Thanks, very insightful. Lizzie
 To: [hidden email]
From: [hidden email]
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 12:30:47 -0700
Subject: Re: [eSens] Re: negative ion generators are not all equal
















 



 


   
     
     
      On October 14, Elizabeth thode <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Marc, You said:

> > However, ion generators (even the kind without fans)

> > caused a "prickly" ES sensation on my skin, so I

> > abandoned using them altogether (plus they blackened

> > my walls and furniture).  

>

> Why/how did the ion generators blacken the walls? Lizzie



All those particles that the negative ion generators remove

from the air have to go somewhere -- unfortunately, they

usually end up on a wall or a couch that's next to the

generator.  And that stuff's seemingly impossible to

remove (we eventually through away the couch, repainted

the walls, and banned negative ion generators from the

house).



Marc



   
     

   
   






       

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My experience has been the same as Marc's on a stand-alone Neg.ion generator that I once owned.  It made the adjoining wall blackened as if I had been burning a campfire inside the house next to it..

Also,  I do currently own 2 different Hepa filter machines which have a neg. ion generator built in and have not experienced any blackened walls. I'm not really sure if I'm getting any benefit from them; they are incidental to the filter unit.

One thing that I have had success with in oxidizing different VOC's, toxins, etc. related to new construction is by using a heavy-duty OZONE machine BEFORE we moved in.  The machine I use (by Air Zone) has a timer on it so that I am not exposed to the Ozone and can give it adequate time to dissipate.

I ran my ozone unit many times in various parts of the house and it was very effective in reducing the level of odor. One strategy is putting it next to the return air and running the HVAC fan to circulate the ozone(while you and your animals are NOT there). Of course, it's best to use non-toxic construction materials in the first place when possible since this is not a perfect solution.

Jim
 

--- In [hidden email], Elizabeth thode <lizt777@...> wrote:

marc, they now have negative ion generators  
with collection plates so they do not throw black
stuff on the wall.  the one i linked to has that
feature.  interestingly, i just read the list of
attributes and it mentions EMF at the bottom:

        • Superior quality, long-lasting, highly effective, reliable, genuine negative room ionizers. Generates an optimum level of high-density negative ions.
 
        • Very effectively removes particles from the air as small as .01 microns, such as pollen, dust, mold spores, pet dander, and other allergens.
 
        • Negative ion output 80 to 100 trillion ions per second, externally. (That is, out into your room, instead of being captured and trapped inside the ionizer).
 
        • For large or small rooms - covers 4000 cubic feet
(a 20' W x 20' L x 10' H room).
 
        • Ionization method requires no filter, so there's never a need to buy or clean filters.
 
        • Neither are noisy fans or blowers required. Room air is cleaned and purified noiselessly- completely silent.
 
        • More effective than expensive HEPA filters or electronic air cleaners: ionized room air does not have to be circulated by a fan and pass through a filter to be cleaned.
 
        • Uses no chemicals, perfumes, filters, or agents.
 
        • Does not produce harmful EMF (electromagnetic fields).




On Oct 14, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Marc Martin wrote:




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I have one of those in the loft in my house - I had no idea it had anything to do with negative ions - I turned it off because it just made the house really cold and hard to heat

Steph


________________________________
 From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, 13 October 2012, 11:12
Subject: Re: [eSens] negative ion generators are not all equal
 

 
i wouldn't be surprised if fans literally throw off electrons just as they
disperse air, that said some air movers and Aircon units have lots of
electronics and this definitely makes this potential phenomenon worse.  My
local superstore has a fan unit in the ceiling which I try to avoid staying
under as it causes the bridge of my nose and scalp to sting.  My daughter  had
a battery operated hand held fan which had led lights built into the blades
of the fan, when I put this near the digital TV, the picture broke up, so
evan  battery fans can have an effect.  I also have a pifco air humidifier
which  has no fan but this gives of mad levels of emf, so I have long
dispensed with  using these devices - a whole house positive pressure system is best
where the  fan unit is high up in a loft space and the air it draws in from
the outside is  filtered and is passed to internal vents which then leads
to posite  presurisation of the house nad a good deal of air changes per
hour...


puk


In a message dated 13/10/2012 07:55:50 GMT Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:

ALL negative ion generators do produce what I call *dirty air*.

So  they should be avoided.

Greetings,
Charles Claessens
member  Verband  Baubiologie
www.milieuziektes.nl
www.milieuziektes.be
www.hetbitje.nl
checked  by Emsisoft

----- Original Message -----
From: Auntie Patricia
To: _eSens@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:[hidden email])
Sent:  Friday, October 12, 2012 9:24 PM
Subject: [eSens] negative ion generators  are not all equal

puk, thanks for the info and for helping me
clarify something for myself...

does yours have a fan?
i have  some with fans and one without.
the ones with fan DO measure high in  EMF...
the one without a fan measures the same
as the ambient room  EMF, no matter where
i hold my EMF meter.

this is the one i have  ...
_http://www.negativeiongenerators.com/roomionizers.html_
(http://www.negativeiongenerators.com/roomionizers.html)
hmm...  i think the price has not changed
since i bought mine ten years ago.
i  put this in the center of my home and
it works well. i think i'll get rid  of the
others, now that i am clear that fans
are not good to mix with  EMF.

thanks.
patricia

On Oct 12, 2012, at 3:53 AM, _paulpjc@aol.com_ (mailto:[hidden email])
wrote:

> I find  that the mains powered air purifiers can give off high levels of
EMR
>  and dirty power so they negate the clean air benefit for me, unless you
> can get a whole house system where the fan unit and electronics are  well
away
> from the inhabited parts of the house and even then the  unit should be
> filtered for dirty power influx to your mains  wiring
>
>  puk

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups  Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have had that experience with the blackening of walls and furniture too - with an ionizer in my office back in the days when I was able to work

Steph


________________________________
 From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 20:30
Subject: Re: [eSens] Re: negative ion generators are not all equal
 

 
On October 14, Elizabeth thode <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Marc, You said:
> > However, ion generators (even the kind without fans)
> > caused a "prickly" ES sensation on my skin, so I
> > abandoned using them altogether (plus they blackened
> > my walls and furniture).
>
> Why/how did the ion generators blacken the walls? Lizzie

All those particles that the negative ion generators remove
from the air have to go somewhere -- unfortunately, they
usually end up on a wall or a couch that's next to the
generator.  And that stuff's seemingly impossible to
remove (we eventually through away the couch, repainted
the walls, and banned negative ion generators from the
house).

Marc

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That is true. It does blackening of the walls near by.
--- In [hidden email], Stephanie Smith <reader41@...> wrote: