Still need an answer

I still haven't got a definitive answer to my question about whether it
is normal in a upstairs apartment to have hot spots all over the house
from underfloor wiring.

I'm talking about readings of up to 10 milligauss over several sq feet
(the whole area at our dining table, for example).

There are still readings a above the floor (although less of course)
and we have eliminated current coming from water pipes in the street.

IS THIS NORMAL IN A HOUSE WITH UNDERFLOOR WIRING? Or is this something
that can be fixed?

PLEASE, I need an resounding answer to this question to get my husband
on board in the quest for a solution!

Thanking you in advance for your feedback.

Aline

There are a number of reasons for the readings depending on the wire
and its source and termination.
There should be no magnetic fields if it is balanced correctly.
It was explained very well earlier by Garth and his email is copied
below:
If you need to talk with someone that can explain it down to the
electron, contact Charles Keen
[hidden email]
If you can isolate it to one wire, you might be able to replace it with
MC insulated wire and that will not let the fields out.
good luck! I have been trouble shooting my home for a year now (3rd in
5 years). Good local help is hard to find.
Andrew

[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [eSens] Miswired Outlets Questions
Date: December 28, 2006 2:32:35 AM EST
To: [hidden email]

I think some wiring problems can be found by a simple socket tester,
but others (and perhaps the ones more important to ES) are often more
subtle. For instance, in 2 separate rooms of my home, I found that
fields jumped dramatically throughout the room when I turned on an
appliance. It took me a while to figure out what was happening.

In both cases, the problem was caused by incorrect 'joining' of
neutral wires between multiple circuits. For instance, if there are
2 breakers leading from the main panel, breaker A and breaker B,
feeding circuit A and circuit B, and in some junction box in a
particular room, the neutrals from circuit A and B are tied together,
it can cause big problems for ES.

Normally, any currents which are carried by the hot (black) conductor
of circuit A are returned to the entrance panel by the neutral
(white) conductor of circuit A, which cancels the magnetic field
produced by the conductors of circuit A, as the two fields generated
from the two conductors are carried in the same cable, and the fields
cancel. The field from the wiring will be miniscule farther than a
few inches from the cable.

If, however, the neutrals are tied together, then any appliance or
light which is plugged in to circuit A draws all of it's current
through the hot conductor (black wire) of circuit A, but returns only
half its current via the neutral conductor of circuit A (white wire),
the remainder being returned through circuit B's neutral (white
wire). Assuming circuit B's wire is routed differently than circuit
A's wire, the fields no longer cancel properly in circuit A, because
the return/neutral (white) current is only half as strong as the
supply (black,hot) current. In addition, the current returning
through circuit B's neutral is not cancelled by any supply current in
circuit B, and therefore a strong magnetic and electric field is
generated around both circuits A and B, which is often detectable
throughout the room.

It is my opinion that this kind of wiring error is one of the more
common ways that large electric or magnetic fields are generated in a
room by wiring. It is fairly easily corrected by a knowledgeable
electrician -- neutral wires (and certainly hot wires!) must be kept
separate for each circuit and not connected to any other circuit, and
the two current carrying conductors (hot/neutral) for any branch
should always be routed together.

The telltale sign of this kind of wiring error is that the fields
jump throughout the room (not just near the appliance) whenever a
light switch or appliance is turned on, and then return to low values
when that appliance is turned off. These fields will be strong even
if the actual appliance does not produce any field at all. I have
a small electric heater which I use for tests, as it draws high
current but doesn't produce much field. This makes any wiring
issues on the circuit quickly apparent as fields throughout the room
are strongest when current draw is highest.

Some appliances produce high frequency harmonics on the power line
(computers, for instance). These devices cause especially acute
problems when plugged into circuits which are improperly wired, as
the resulting magnetic/electric field throughout the room then also
contains high frequency harmonics, which some people (including me)
find intolerable. Yes, I have found the stetzer filters helpful in
this case, but fixing the wiring problem is also required. No amount
of filtration can solve the problems of bad wiring.

You can often find the source of the wiring problems by plugging in a
load (like a portable heater), provoking the strong field, and then
using a ELF magnetic field meter (trifield works) to scan the wall to
find the wiring - the strongest fields will be around the wiring.
Sometimes by following the wiring (using the magnetic field as a
guide), you can find a junction box where neutrals are improperly
tied together. This technique worked for me.

Of course, I would suggest you contact a qualified electrician before
making any changes to your wiring. This information should be
understandable to most electricians, although some seem clueless that
tying neutrals from different circuits together is a bad idea.

Hope that was helpful -- Garth
I think some wiring problems can be found by a simple socket tester,
but others (and perhaps the ones more important to ES) are often more
subtle. For instance, in 2 separate rooms of my home, I found that
fields jumped dramatically throughout the room when I turned on an
appliance. It took me a while to figure out what was happening.

In both cases, the problem was caused by incorrect 'joining' of
neutral wires between multiple circuits. For instance, if there are
2 breakers leading from the main panel, breaker A and breaker B,
feeding circuit A and circuit B, and in some junction box in a
particular room, the neutrals from circuit A and B are tied together,
it can cause big problems for ES.

Normally, any currents which are carried by the hot (black) conductor
of circuit A are returned to the entrance panel by the neutral
(white) conductor of circuit A, which cancels the magnetic field
produced by the conductors of circuit A, as the two fields generated
from the two conductors are carried in the same cable, and the fields
cancel. The field from the wiring will be miniscule farther than a
few inches from the cable.

If, however, the neutrals are tied together, then any appliance or
light which is plugged in to circuit A draws all of it's current
through the hot conductor (black wire) of circuit A, but returns only
half its current via the neutral conductor of circuit A (white wire),
the remainder being returned through circuit B's neutral (white
wire). Assuming circuit B's wire is routed differently than circuit
A's wire, the fields no longer cancel properly in circuit A, because
the return/neutral (white) current is only half as strong as the
supply (black,hot) current. In addition, the current returning
through circuit B's neutral is not cancelled by any supply current in
circuit B, and therefore a strong magnetic and electric field is
generated around both circuits A and B, which is often detectable
throughout the room.

It is my opinion that this kind of wiring error is one of the more
common ways that large electric or magnetic fields are generated in a
room by wiring. It is fairly easily corrected by a knowledgeable
electrician -- neutral wires (and certainly hot wires!) must be kept
separate for each circuit and not connected to any other circuit, and
the two current carrying conductors (hot/neutral) for any branch
should always be routed together.

The telltale sign of this kind of wiring error is that the fields
jump throughout the room (not just near the appliance) whenever a
light switch or appliance is turned on, and then return to low values
when that appliance is turned off. These fields will be strong even
if the actual appliance does not produce any field at all. I have
a small electric heater which I use for tests, as it draws high
current but doesn't produce much field. This makes any wiring
issues on the circuit quickly apparent as fields throughout the room
are strongest when current draw is highest.

Some appliances produce high frequency harmonics on the power line
(computers, for instance). These devices cause especially acute
problems when plugged into circuits which are improperly wired, as
the resulting magnetic/electric field throughout the room then also
contains high frequency harmonics, which some people (including me)
find intolerable. Yes, I have found the stetzer filters helpful in
this case, but fixing the wiring problem is also required. No amount
of filtration can solve the problems of bad wiring.

You can often find the source of the wiring problems by plugging in a
load (like a portable heater), provoking the strong field, and then
using a ELF magnetic field meter (trifield works) to scan the wall to
find the wiring - the strongest fields will be around the wiring.
Sometimes by following the wiring (using the magnetic field as a
guide), you can find a junction box where neutrals are improperly
tied together. This technique worked for me.

Of course, I would suggest you contact a qualified electrician before
making any changes to your wiring. This information should be
understandable to most electricians, although some seem clueless that
tying neutrals from different circuits together is a bad idea.

Hope that was helpful -- Garth
.

On Feb 22, 2007, at 2:47 PM, Aline wrote:

Andrew forwarded the information I sent before about wiring problems
and correcting them. I don't really know what you mean by
"underfloor wiring", do you mean wiring literally in the floor of the
apartment (this is uncommon unless you have electrically heated
floors), or do you mean wiring in the walls of the "floor below".

Whether the wires are run through the walls or the floor, if the
loads are balanced along the conductors (as per my previous mail that
andrew forwarded), large fields should not exist throughout the
room. Fields throughout the room are indicative of wiring errors
leading to unbalanced/uncanceled currents.

Garth

On Feb 22, 2007, at 11:47 AM, Aline wrote:

Hi Aline,

I'll jump back in and try to help clarify:

Most wiring is in walls, but in multi-story buildings, it is between
floors too. This all depends on the skill of the electrician who
designed the layout.
Ceiling lighting for example, must have wiring to get to it.

You have asked a couple times, is 20 mG normal.
No.
That is a very high reading.

2mG is normal, When there is CURRENT moving through the wire, or along
the surface, (as physics better describes it.)
One very relevant detail, is how close to the ceiling/wall/wiring are
you holding the meter??
At very close range, like 3 inches, it is normal to get very high
readings, as the field strength is log-rhythmic, or exponential.
The field strength decreases rapidly with distance.

Pick a distance, like 12 inches, to take consistant measurements from.


When the power is off, it should be near 0 mG.
In reality, it will be the same as the AMBIENT level, as if the house
was not there. The ambient level, is determined by proximity to power
lines, and other Outside influences.

When current is flowing, when something is turned on, then that current
is measured in AMPS. The flow or movement of electrons creates the
magnetic field in a spiral or round shape extending from the wire.

So to find the offending appliance, turn off everything, which you have
done. Then turn on circuits one or two at a time, and note WHEN the
field returns.

Either there is a power hog in combination with inadequate sized wiring,
or there is an imbalance, as described in earlier emails.
For the first possibility: The heavier, or thicker, sized the wiring,
the less magnetic field will be generated, as there is more surface area
for the electrons to flow. Like a superhighway. No traffic jambs.
It is common to cut costs by installing 14 gauge wiring, instead of 12
or 10 gauge.
Of course, large appliances like the range must be thicker 6 gauge to
carry 50 Amps, to be legal with code.

The second possibility, an imbalance, I'll try to help describe.
Between the circuit breaker box and the appliance turned on. I'll call
points A and B.
Now think of the wiring as roads. between point A, the housing suburb.
and point B, the business district.

If there is one road between point A and B, then daily traffic flow must
be close to balanced. For every 100 cars that travel from A to B, there
are 100 cars that travel back from B to A. The road has one lane in each
direction. So the traffic flow is balanced.

If however, there are now 2 roads between A and B, and all 100 cars go
via the supermarket on the way home, then the roads will resemble
one-way streets. Thus, unbalanced traffic flow. The road crew will only
need to re-pave and fix potholes on Half the road.

Applying this example to wiring: If the traffic flow of electrons, after
flowing from A to B on the Hot wire, does not return from B to A on the
Neutral wire, By the Same Route, then our measurement of traffic flow
along that route will not be balanced.
We want balance in this way: for the flow of electrons, coming and
going, to equal zero net movement. Thus a lower magnetic field strength.

When the hot and neutral wires are split apart, or things are wired
badly, the measurement along a single wire will have a higher gauss
reading, because the traffic is flowing in only one direction.

The two most common causes of unbalanced wiring are:
3-way light switches, and shared neutral wires.

Focusing on the later:
Like having two routes from A to B, actually the two phases that enter a
home, and only one route from B to A, will cause either: a traffic jam,
or overheating, to occur along the neutral path,
or: load-sharing from the 2 phases, where no current flows back by
neutral, but instead by the Other hot wire. I'll call that having our
cars travel from A to B, and then drive backwards from B to A on the
same road. instead of traveling forward on the neutral road home.


Does that help?


Aline wrote:
> To answer your question: the wiring is in the ceilings of the garage
> and rooms below, under the floor joists. The 'hot spots' are created by
> these wires, not any electrical device in the ceiling.
>

Are there rooms above the garage?

Can you see the wires to confirm there are no devices along that path?

> One example is a 'hot line' running through our living room towards the
> kitchen. This is created by wiring which is in a box running the length
> of the garage underneath. This has plastic water pipes in it and, a
> foot away, electrical wiring in it. Readings are up to 20 mg when
> measured at the ceiling downstairs.
>
>

Does this box run the entire length of the garage ceiling?
What is it made of?
and again, how close to the wire is the measurement being taken?

> >From what you are saying it sounds like wiring is not normally in
> ceilings but in walls??
>
> Thanks for any clarification you can give me.
>


(You're welcome)

Stewart

Hi Stewart,

Thanks for the info. I'm going to have to take some time to
understand all this but I will answer your questions:

I have taken readings at the floor and a foot above:

At the dining room table:

When only the fridge and a couple of lights are on:
(i.e) normal evening conditions:
5+ mg at the floor, 2-3 mg a foot above
(depends on how active the fridge is).

When oven is on also: 7 mg at the floor, 3-4 mg a foot above.

When microwave is on (instead of oven): 10 mg at the floor, 5 mg a
foot above.

When the kitchen appliances are running the 'hot line' in the living
room spikes too (as it does when the TV is on). I can't stand
watching TV in the living room when the dishwasher in the kitchen is
on.

Bear in mind that the readings at the floor are not right next to the
wires anyway as the wires are under the floor joists at least a foot
away from the floor surface.

The 20mg reading was taken from under the floor where the 'hot line'
is (i.e. at the ceiling below, nearer to the wires). My husband, a
general contractor, built the house and he says there are no devices
in there (in case you are wondering: he didn't do the wiring - it was
done by licensed electricians!). The box which contains the wiring
and plastic water pipes is made from timber and drywall and runs the
length of the garage.

Husband says the wiring from the fuse box to the kitchen is in this
box. He's not sure about the wiring that runs perpendicular towards
the dining room.

Sounds like we definitely need the help of an enlightened
electrician. Have followed up a few leads but to no avail yet.

Thanks again,
Aline

--- In [hidden email], "S. Andreason" <sandreas41@...> wrote:

Hi Aline,

I'll jump back in and try to help clarify:

Most wiring is in walls, but in multi-story buildings, it is between
floors too. This all depends on the skill of the electrician who
designed the layout. Ceiling lighting for example, must have wiring
to get to it.

You have asked a couple times, is 20 mG normal.
No. That is a very high reading.

2mG is normal, When there is CURRENT moving through the wire, or
along the surface, (as physics better describes it.) One very
relevant detail, is how close to the ceiling/wall/wiring are you
holding the meter??

At very close range, like 3 inches, it is normal to get very high
readings, as the field strength is log-rhythmic, or exponential.
The field strength decreases rapidly with distance.

Pick a distance, like 12 inches, to take consistant measurements from.


When the power is off, it should be near 0 mG. In reality, it will be
the same as the AMBIENT level, as if the house was not there. The
ambient level, is determined by proximity to power
lines, and other Outside influences.

When current is flowing, when something is turned on, then that
current is measured in AMPS. The flow or movement of electrons
creates the magnetic field in a spiral or round shape extending from
the wire.

So to find the offending appliance, turn off everything, which you
have done. Then turn on circuits one or two at a time, and note WHEN
the field returns.

Either there is a power hog in combination with inadequate sized
wiring, or there is an imbalance, as described in earlier emails.
For the first possibility: The heavier, or thicker, sized the wiring,
the less magnetic field will be generated, as there is more surface
area for the electrons to flow. Like a superhighway. No traffic jambs.
It is common to cut costs by installing 14 gauge wiring, instead of
12 or 10 gauge.

Of course, large appliances like the range must be thicker 6 gauge to
carry 50 Amps, to be legal with code.

The second possibility, an imbalance, I'll try to help describe.
Between the circuit breaker box and the appliance turned on. I'll
call points A and B.

Now think of the wiring as roads. between point A, the housing suburb
and point B, the business district.

If there is one road between point A and B, then daily traffic flow
must be close to balanced. For every 100 cars that travel from A to
B, there are 100 cars that travel back from B to A. The road has one
lane in each direction. So the traffic flow is balanced.

If however, there are now 2 roads between A and B, and all 100 cars
go via the supermarket on the way home, then the roads will resemble
one-way streets. Thus, unbalanced traffic flow. The road crew will
only need to re-pave and fix potholes on Half the road.

Applying this example to wiring: If the traffic flow of electrons,
after flowing from A to B on the Hot wire, does not return from B to
A on the Neutral wire, By the Same Route, then our measurement of
traffic flow along that route will not be balanced. We want balance
in this way: for the flow of electrons, coming and going, to equal
zero net movement. Thus a lower magnetic field strength.

When the hot and neutral wires are split apart, or things are wired
badly, the measurement along a single wire will have a higher gauss
reading, because the traffic is flowing in only one direction.

The two most common causes of unbalanced wiring are:
3-way light switches, and shared neutral wires.

Focusing on the later:
Like having two routes from A to B, actually the two phases that
enter a home, and only one route from B to A, will cause either: a
traffic jam, or overheating, to occur along the neutral path,
or: load-sharing from the 2 phases, where no current flows back by
neutral, but instead by the Other hot wire. I'll call that having our
cars travel from A to B, and then drive backwards from B to A on the
same road. instead of traveling forward on the neutral road home.


Does that help?


Aline wrote:
>To answer your question: the wiring is in the ceilings of the garage
>and rooms below, under the floor joists. The 'hot spots' are created
>by these wires, not any electrical device in the ceiling.
 
Are there rooms above the garage?

Can you see the wires to confirm there are no devices along that path?

> > One example is a 'hot line' running through our living room
towards the kitchen. This is created by wiring which is in a box
running the length of the garage underneath. This has plastic water
pipes in it and, a foot away, electrical wiring in it. Readings are
up to 20 mg when measured at the ceiling downstairs.

 
Does this box run the entire length of the garage ceiling?
What is it made of? and again, how close to the wire is the
measurement being taken?


> > Thanks for any clarification you can give me.
   
(You're welcome)

Stewart

Hi Garth & Andrew,

Thanks for the info (I hadn't seen your post before Garth).

To answer your question, Garth:

The wiring is under the floor joists (the garage is below us).

In the case of the 'hot line' the wiring is in a box that protrudes
from the ceiling of the garage below and contains both plastic water
pipes and electrical wiring (separated). This is where we got the
20mg reading (I don't know exactly how near the wiring the reading
was).

Aline


--- In [hidden email], Garth Hitchens <garth@...> wrote:

Andrew forwarded the information I sent before about wiring problems
and correcting them. I don't really know what you mean by  
"underfloor wiring", do you mean wiring literally in the floor of the
apartment (this is uncommon unless you have electrically heated  
floors), or do you mean wiring in the walls of the "floor below".

Whether the wires are run through the walls or the floor, if the  
loads are balanced along the conductors (as per my previous mail that
andrew forwarded), large fields should not exist throughout the  
room. Fields throughout the room are indicative of wiring errors  
leading to unbalanced/uncanceled currents.

Garth