Re:Graham Stetzer "defensiveness"

I am a new member here, and I am one of the people who has recently
written Marc regarding his comments about the Graham Stetzer filters. What the
others said, I have no idea. I object specifically to his saying that the
filters must cause high frequencies, as he feels he has a reaction to them.
It is technically impossible for the Graham Stetzer filters to cause
high frequencies. To say, without proof, that they do is slander. Proof would
be oscilloscope tracings. If anyone has oscilloscope tracings showing that
the GS filters create frequencies of any sort, please send them ASAP to Dr.
Graham or Dave Stetzer. (I will gladly provide their contact information.)
Otherwise, please kindly retract this particular statement.
Dave is fed up with the false statements being made about the filters.
To date, this has been done only by people who have an axe to grind in that
they sell products that do not do anyplace close to the job of helping ES
people that the filters do, or because they represent the utility companies who do
not want the public to find out just how many of their health problems are
being caused by the polluted electricity being delivered to their homes. Marc's
remarks are not similarly motivated, but that does not make them more
tolerable, nor true.
I hope that Mark will think about this and take the appropriate action.
If he wants to take the stand that the filters create RF, he is under the
obligation to prove that this is so. Otherwise, he may be facing a law suit.
I am guessing that it did not occur to Marc that he had said anything
slanderous, but unfortunately he has.
I myself almost died in 2002, from health problems that turned out to be
caused by electrical pollution - health-damaging high frequencies riding on
the 60Hz from our utility company. If someone had not given me Dave Stetzer's
phone number I literally would not be here to write this letter today. I am
a natural health practitioner, and have become an activist and educator
regarding electrical pollution. I give a workshop to help people remediate their
own living spaces, and have a book on this "in the works."
One important point is that the filters can only address the high
frequencies in the circuits they are plugged into. In many cases, however, the
RF has found its way onto water pipes, phone lines, etcetera, and these must be
addressed as well. In our home, we also had high-frequency electrical
fields on doors, woodwork, furniture, walls, in the water of some of our faucets
and showers....
Dave Stetzer spent hours on the phone teaching me how to find and
remediate our myriad electrical pollution problems. He has devoted his life to
doing all that he can to provide solutions to the electrical pollution problem.
Too much of his life, actually, so that he has no time left for a personal
life, and may burn himself out. ES people certainly have no greater friend
and ally than Dave.
Those interested can read more about electrical pollution and its
solutions at www.electricalpollution.com and www.stetzerelectric.com. At the
latter site, be sure to click on "research" and read about Dr. Magda Havas' work.
She is now doing a study with a group of MS patients, and the results are
absolutly stunning. People with MS who could not walk are now shovelling snow
and dancing on their sidewalks, after installing the Graham Stetzer filters in
their homes.
I will be glad to send my own article on electrical pollution to anyone
who would like to read it.
Regards,
Shivani Arjuna Small
[hidden email]
920-994-4082



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Otherwise, he may be facing a law suit.

Well, that's a fine way to introduce yourself to a group. :-(

All I did was report my reaction to these filters, and
now I've got a bunch of people harrasing me for it.
One would think that we could have a free exchange of ideas
and information, and then we would all be better off
for it. But instead, now I've got people threatening
me with lawsuits for having a negative reaction to a
product.

If I'm getting sharp pains in my head almost immediately
after plugging something into my power outlet, then I
think that I can safely state that there is something
being generated that were not there before.
Especially when they go away when I unplug it. Especially
when I've tried other types of shunt filters and had
similar reactions.

You've said before that these filters remove the RF
noise in the waveform. Well, in order to do that,
they are obviously alterating the original waveform,
correct? They are not removing the noise
spikes completely, because the meter only shows
a reduction in the noise, not an elimination of it.
So this means that they are either reducing the
amplitude of the noise spikes, or they
are truncating it (or a bit of both). If they
are truncating it, there have already been studies
that sharp corners in waveforms seem to cause
more problems for some ES folks, and I may be reacting
to the introduction of the these new corners
added to the waveforms that were not there in
the first place.

But of course, this is all just my own speculation
based on my reading the about what the filters
do, and my own personal reaction to them. I'd
hardly think that my theorizing in a discussion
group qualifies as slander.

And what about the studies done in schools where
they did the surveys to see if people's health
were doing better or worse after the installation,
and a significant portion of these people reported
that they were doing worse? What is your
explanation for that?

Marc

> If he wants to take the stand that the filters create RF, he is under
> the obligation to prove that this is so.

I don't take the stand that the filters create RF.

I do take the stand that the filters give me a headache. This
would be very easy to prove with a double blind test.

I also take the stand that I don't see how these filters would
help ES folks who are having trouble tolerating driving
a car, being in an airport, being in a shopping mall, being
in a grocery store, walking under power lines, being in
an internet cafe, standing next to someone using a cellphone,
etc. Perhaps you could explain?

Marc

Marc, in my search for information and resources regarding ES
and related medical conditions. ESens is the only newsgroup
I've found where the quality of the information shared is
consistently high and, I feel, reliable -- i.e., free of commercial or
any other motivation besides the wish to pool information
relevant to the group. I'd hate to see this change simply because
someone with an interest in promoting or protecting a particular
commercial product starts throwing bullying legal language
around.

It isn't necessary to attack one another here. Don't folks with ES
have enough problems? And, I must say, if someone wants to
convince *me* to buy an EMF protection device or book -- they'll
have better luck winning me over by projecting openness and
confidence rather than insecurity and paranoia. I wouldn't trust a
salesman who threatens his customers. I don't even know what
this product is -- have not been following the posts about it -- but
here is my first impression based on its spokesperson's
behavior: it must be a pretty damn crappy product.

So, am I guilty of slander now, too?

Cara

--- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@u...>
wrote:

> I wouldn't trust a
> salesman who threatens his customers. I don't even know what
> this product is -- have not been following the posts about it -- but
> here is my first impression based on its spokesperson's
> behavior: it must be a pretty damn crappy product.

I think if you review the archives, there was one (maybe two?)
person(s) here who have tried the Graham Stetzer filters, and reported
good results with them. I was on another discussion group
where someone bought a whole set of 20 filters, and returned
them because he was having a negative reaction to them.

My only reason for buying one in the first place was to do some
experimentation -- as you know, I had good results with the
Quantum Products line. This line of products has been
described to be "similar to a highly refined shunt
filter". This means that it takes the noise out of the signal,
leaving just the pure signal behind. The Graham-Stetzer filters
have also been described as a shunt filter, so I thought it
would be interesting to compare. But I dismissed them rather
quickly when they immediately caused a piercing headache.

The piercing headache reminded me of a reaction I had
to a plugin device to scare away insects. This company
claimed that the device didn't affect people, but boy did
I have a bad reaction to it!

But I don't doubt that these filter have helped people. I just
think I may already own devices which work better for me and
my particular sensitivities. And I don't really think my
home is much of a problem.

But the thing about these people's reactions which surprise
me is that they assume that I must "imagining" that I'm
having a headache (I suppose I'm imagining that I have ES,
too?), and they will not accept that this product does not
work 100% of the time for everyone -- even though the company's
own research has shown that some people have no reaction
to them, and some have an adverse reaction.

Marc

> It isn't necessary to attack one another here. Don't folks with ES
> have enough problems?

Heh, heh... well, one of the symptoms of ES is that we get a bit
irritable, so we must be forgiving of our fellow sufferers. :-)
Besides, I've been reading some articles by Shivani, and it appears that
before she was threatening people with lawsuits, she's written
several articles on electrical pollution, and raising awareness
in the public.

One of the articles pretty much answered my earlier question
about the effectiveness of these filters outside the home:

"Arjuna is now so electrically sensitive that even the
arcing in a car's electrical system affects her and
prevents her from driving. She is essentially homebound
as the electrical pollution in most public places affects
her severely".

This is just as I suspected. These filter don't appear to
help you much in getting out into the real world. So for
the hundreds of dollars you spend on these filters, you
still get to be homebound.

Those filters may have kept you alive Shivani, but you could
learn a thing or two here about possibly getting your life
back -- including driving and going to public places.

Marc

> One of the articles pretty much answered my earlier question
> about the effectiveness of these filters outside the home:
>
> "Arjuna is now so electrically sensitive that even the
> arcing in a car's electrical system affects her and
> prevents her from driving. She is essentially homebound
> as the electrical pollution in most public places affects
> her severely".

This article says that you also have 37 filters in your
home Shivani, is that correct? Plus,

"she and her husband have taken several measures to
reduce her exposure to harmful electrical phenomena,
including the installation of shielded phone lines
and modifying the hot water heating system, which
conducts ground current, to reduce her exposure
in the kitchen to 'bearable' levels. They have
also stopped using several electrical heating
baseboards that were broadcasting radio-frequency
radiation"

Wow... that's a lot of effort, but it all falls into the
catagory of "avoidance", which I view as only part of
the solution.

I'm also reading that you are a holistic health practitioner
and wellness consultant, which indicates to me that you should
have some awareness of what the rest of the solution should be --
detoxification & nutrition. Have you done anything
in these areas for your ES?

Also, as I'm sure you must realize, there are dozens
of EMF protection devices on the market. What have
you tried besides these 37 filters?

Marc

In a message dated 3/21/2005 7:54:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[hidden email] writes:
I think if you review the archives, there was one (maybe two?)
person(s) here who have tried the Graham Stetzer filters, and reported
good results with them. I was on another discussion group
where someone bought a whole set of 20 filters, and returned
them because he was having a negative reaction to them.
I have the filters and they have definitely made a subtle, but very real
improvement in how I feel (less agitated).
By the way, you don't have to buy the whole set that is advertised in
some places. I did a web search at the time and was able to contact Dave
Stetzer (he's the electrician in Minnesota who invented them along with a professor
emeritus in electrical engineering at UC berkeley, Professor Martin Graham)
and order less than 20.
I live in a small apartment, so I didn't need that many. My husband
and friends have also commented that the apartment seems calmer (could be
placebo for them, but I really don't think it is for me). No affiliation with the
graham stetzer, etc. Stephanie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hallo Marc,
your experience with the Stetzer filter is very interesting. This technology
is based on traditional physics as far as I understand, and after installing
the filter you can measure less electrical pollution with your e-meter. If
someone still gets symptoms, something in this technology is lacking. It would be
interesting to find out what. Denial is the worst thing one can do. Also it is
very well known, that people using a Faradayan cage technology for some time
may get relief and then the symptoms reocure.

from the viewpoint of my research these phenomena can be explained by the
scalar waves that always go with the measurable transversal elektromagnetic
waves, the scalar waves, that are responsible for the non thermic biological effect
of EMF. They follow different physical laws and can not effectively be
handled by ordinary physics.

So far these waves are ingored and even ridiculed. Quantum products,
springlife polarizers and many others work with these waves successfully mostly.

Dietrich Gruen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> your experience with the Stetzer filter is very interesting. This technology
> is based on traditional physics as far as I understand, and after installing
> the filter you can measure less electrical pollution with your e-meter. If
> someone still gets symptoms, something in this technology is lacking. It would be
> interesting to find out what.

Well, to be fair, I never tried the full 20 filters in the house.
After my experience with just one filter, I fear that 20 might be
unbearable!

But I understand that Charles already has the Stetzer meter and is getting
some filters. I will be interested in reading his assessment using his
various meters, and also his wife's reaction. If these are positive, I may
re-investigate this again, as sometimes I am too quick to dismiss things.

But if the cats start peeing on the furniture, out they go!

Marc

Hi Dietrich:
Is there any way of objectively measuring the strength of scalar waves?
In their book "Pulsors" Dr Yao and Colonel Bearden describe some very complex instrumentation for modifying these waves - but is there something simpler out there that the average layman could use to assess the contribution that these waves are making to our total EMF environment?
Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [eSens] Re:Graham Stetzer "defensiveness"


Hallo Marc,
your experience with the Stetzer filter is very interesting. This technology
is based on traditional physics as far as I understand, and after installing
the filter you can measure less electrical pollution with your e-meter. If
someone still gets symptoms, something in this technology is lacking. It would be
interesting to find out what. Denial is the worst thing one can do. Also it is
very well known, that people using a Faradayan cage technology for some time
may get relief and then the symptoms reocure.

from the viewpoint of my research these phenomena can be explained by the
scalar waves that always go with the measurable transversal elektromagnetic
waves, the scalar waves, that are responsible for the non thermic biological effect
of EMF. They follow different physical laws and can not effectively be
handled by ordinary physics.

So far these waves are ingored and even ridiculed. Quantum products,
springlife polarizers and many others work with these waves successfully mostly.

Dietrich Gruen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dietrich, I find your post (and Marc's previous ones in this thread)
very interesting because of the puzzling experiences my husband and I
have had with meter readings vs. subjective experience. When we first
realized ES was an issue for us, we hired a professional EMF
consultant to meter our apartment. The magnetic readings were low but
the electrical readings were high. We started avoidance and shielding
right away, but, given that we could only mitigate our electrical
field levels to a certain extent, plus the severity of my husband's
ES symptoms, I felt we should move immediately. I purchased a body
voltage meter and trifield meter, and for two months searched for a
suitable apartment or house. I looked at dozens of apartments and
houses, and metered every single one (often with a very skeptical
potential landlord watching). Whenever he was strong enough, my
husband joined me in my search. After the first or second time,
however, we realized my husband's presence was *crucial*, not
optional, because the EMF readings I was getting with our meters did
not *necessarily* reflect his subjective experience in a particular
space. For example, one apartment with seemingly very low magnetic,
electrical, RF readings gave my husband a bad headache. But he also
got an instant, very strong headache in a house that had very high
magnetic readings. We also had our theories jumbled when we took
readings at my mother-in-law's house. My husband has always felt very
comfortable there, so we assumed the readings would be low. Wrong --
the electrical readings were higher than most we'd seen elsewhere.

After we saw the readings at my mother-in-law's house we decided NOT
to move for now, and instead sit tight where we are until we
understand better how to recognize a "safe" environment when we find
one. Meanwhile we do what we can with avoidance/shielding/grounding,
while strengthening my husband's resistance to EMFs nutritionally and
through meditation or whatever else we find that works. It does seem,
to us, that the meters are failing to measure some important factor
or factors... Whether that's because our meters are not sensitive
enough or they are simply not designed to measure certain things that
powerfully affect my husband, I am not at this point qualified to
say. But, your ideas about scalar waves are interesting because (as
I've posted previously) my husband once experimented with and had
very strong reactions to energy that was described to us as "scalar
waves". In his case, he had both very strong positive and negative
reactions to this energy. Depending on precise modulation, the energy
seemed to have the power to either "heal" (dramatically reduce ES
symptoms, enhance energy etc.) or hurt (exhaustion, pain, etc).

So, I'd be very interested to read more about your research or even
theoretical speculation on this subject. I'm no scientist but I have
been observing my husband's experience very closely for some time and
I am strongly inclined to think there is something very important to
be learned along the lines you describe.

Cara

--- In [hidden email], Gruendg@a... wrote:
> Hallo Marc,
> your experience with the Stetzer filter is very interesting. This
technology
> is based on traditional physics as far as I understand, and after
installing
> the filter you can measure less electrical pollution with your e-
meter. If
> someone still gets symptoms, something in this technology is
lacking. It would be
> interesting to find out what. Denial is the worst thing one can do.
Also it is
> very well known, that people using a Faradayan cage technology for
some time
> may get relief and then the symptoms reocure.
>
> From the viewpoint of my research these phenomena can be explained
by the
> scalar waves that always go with the measurable transversal
elektromagnetic
> waves, the scalar waves, that are responsible for the non thermic
biological effect
> of EMF. They follow different physical laws and can not
effectively be
> handled by ordinary physics.
>
> So far these waves are ingored and even ridiculed. Quantum
products,
> springlife polarizers and many others work with these waves
successfully mostly.
>
> Dietrich Gruen

Anyone know about 50Hz 240volt Stetzer Filters available in Australia?

Cheers
Pete


On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:13:55 -0800, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:

They are not yet available. Production problems have caused delays. It may be several weeks before the 50 Hz 240V filters are available.

Emil DeToffol
Less EMF Inc.
Anyone know about 50Hz 240volt Stetzer Filters available in Australia?

Cheers
Pete


On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:13:55 -0800, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:



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