To anyone: as Marc wrote >>>>- some people have miswired outlets, so the lights could be emitting a far greater field than necessary (solution - fix the outlet) <<<< Can I *very easily* determine this myself? Or the Head of Maintainince for my building? Any Electrician friend? Just wondering if there is a simple no-cost way to determine. Then, what process and cost are needed to fix things. {Does each outlet and fixture get tested/changed individually?} What should I ask for or watch myself or when asking for help? Thanks! Katrina |
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kattemayo wrote:
> To anyone: > > as Marc wrote > >>>>> - some people have miswired outlets, so the lights could > be emitting a far greater field than necessary (solution > - fix the outlet) <<<< > > Can I *very easily* determine this myself? Well, it depends... :-) Some electrical problems are quite hard to figure out. When I moved into our new house this year, we had a team of electricians trying to solve one particular problem, and they had to bring in another expert when they couldn't figure out what was wrong! On the other hand, I also found a particular outlet that was really bothering me, and I replaced it myself -- and that solved that problem! (I also have an "outlet tester" to make sure that each individual outlet is wired correctly) Marc |
In reply to this post by Katrina
I think some wiring problems can be found by a simple socket tester,
but others (and perhaps the ones more important to ES) are often more subtle. For instance, in 2 separate rooms of my home, I found that fields jumped dramatically throughout the room when I turned on an appliance. It took me a while to figure out what was happening. In both cases, the problem was caused by incorrect 'joining' of neutral wires between multiple circuits. For instance, if there are 2 breakers leading from the main panel, breaker A and breaker B, feeding circuit A and circuit B, and in some junction box in a particular room, the neutrals from circuit A and B are tied together, it can cause big problems for ES. Normally, any currents which are carried by the hot (black) conductor of circuit A are returned to the entrance panel by the neutral (white) conductor of circuit A, which cancels the magnetic field produced by the conductors of circuit A, as the two fields generated from the two conductors are carried in the same cable, and the fields cancel. The field from the wiring will be miniscule farther than a few inches from the cable. If, however, the neutrals are tied together, then any appliance or light which is plugged in to circuit A draws all of it's current through the hot conductor (black wire) of circuit A, but returns only half its current via the neutral conductor of circuit A (white wire), the remainder being returned through circuit B's neutral (white wire). Assuming circuit B's wire is routed differently than circuit A's wire, the fields no longer cancel properly in circuit A, because the return/neutral (white) current is only half as strong as the supply (black,hot) current. In addition, the current returning through circuit B's neutral is not cancelled by any supply current in circuit B, and therefore a strong magnetic and electric field is generated around both circuits A and B, which is often detectable throughout the room. It is my opinion that this kind of wiring error is one of the more common ways that large electric or magnetic fields are generated in a room by wiring. It is fairly easily corrected by a knowledgeable electrician -- neutral wires (and certainly hot wires!) must be kept separate for each circuit and not connected to any other circuit, and the two current carrying conductors (hot/neutral) for any branch should always be routed together. The telltale sign of this kind of wiring error is that the fields jump throughout the room (not just near the appliance) whenever a light switch or appliance is turned on, and then return to low values when that appliance is turned off. These fields will be strong even if the actual appliance does not produce any field at all. I have a small electric heater which I use for tests, as it draws high current but doesn't produce much field. This makes any wiring issues on the circuit quickly apparent as fields throughout the room are strongest when current draw is highest. Some appliances produce high frequency harmonics on the power line (computers, for instance). These devices cause especially acute problems when plugged into circuits which are improperly wired, as the resulting magnetic/electric field throughout the room then also contains high frequency harmonics, which some people (including me) find intolerable. Yes, I have found the stetzer filters helpful in this case, but fixing the wiring problem is also required. No amount of filtration can solve the problems of bad wiring. You can often find the source of the wiring problems by plugging in a load (like a portable heater), provoking the strong field, and then using a ELF magnetic field meter (trifield works) to scan the wall to find the wiring - the strongest fields will be around the wiring. Sometimes by following the wiring (using the magnetic field as a guide), you can find a junction box where neutrals are improperly tied together. This technique worked for me. Of course, I would suggest you contact a qualified electrician before making any changes to your wiring. This information should be understandable to most electricians, although some seem clueless that tying neutrals from different circuits together is a bad idea. Hope that was helpful -- Garth On Dec 27, 2006, at 8:39 PM, kattemayo wrote: > > To anyone: > > as Marc wrote > >>>>> - some people have miswired outlets, so the lights could > be emitting a far greater field than necessary (solution > - fix the outlet) <<<< > > Can I *very easily* determine this myself? Or the Head of > Maintainince for my building? Any Electrician friend? > > Just wondering if there is a simple no-cost way to determine. > Then, what process and cost are needed to fix things. > > {Does each outlet and fixture get tested/changed individually?} > > What should I ask for or watch myself or when asking for help? > > Thanks! > > Katrina > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > |
Garth, Yes, extremely helpful. Due to my cognitive disability (from ME/CFS), I canunderstand each part...most, anyway, but not retain and co-ordinate it all. Plus, currently, have no measuring devices. Moving on to next question regarding this: >>>>although some seem clueless that tying neutrals from different circuitstogether is a bad idea<<<<< This is the impression I've had. So, in consulting a Professional ( either through management, a willing friend as a favor OR someone I'm paying), how can I establish that they WILL know the whole picture ie: not be clueless? And, whoever it is, would showing them your post be a good idea? Thanks, Katrina --- In [hidden email], Garth Hitchens <garth@...> wrote: > > I think some wiring problems can be found by a simple socket tester, > but others (and perhaps the ones more important to ES) are often more > subtle. For instance, in 2 separate rooms of my home, I found that > fields jumped dramatically throughout the room when I turned on an > appliance. It took me a while to figure out what was happening. > > In both cases, the problem was caused by incorrect 'joining' of > neutral wires between multiple circuits. For instance, if there are > 2 breakers leading from the main panel, breaker A and breaker B, > feeding circuit A and circuit B, and in some junction box in a > particular room, the neutrals from circuit A and B are tied together, > it can cause big problems for ES. > > Normally, any currents which are carried by the hot (black) conductor > of circuit A are returned to the entrance panel by the neutral > (white) conductor of circuit A, which cancels the magnetic field > produced by the conductors of circuit A, as the two fields generated > from the two conductors are carried in the same cable, and the fields > cancel. The field from the wiring will be miniscule farther than a > few inches from the cable. > > If, however, the neutrals are tied together, then any appliance or > light which is plugged in to circuit A draws all of it's current > through the hot conductor (black wire) of circuit A, but returns only > half its current via the neutral conductor of circuit A (white wire), > the remainder being returned through circuit B's neutral (white > wire). Assuming circuit B's wire is routed differently than circuit > A's wire, the fields no longer cancel properly in circuit A, because > the return/neutral (white) current is only half as strong as the > supply (black,hot) current. In addition, the current returning > through circuit B's neutral is not cancelled by any supply current in > circuit B, and therefore a strong magnetic and electric field is > generated around both circuits A and B, which is often detectable > throughout the room. > > It is my opinion that this kind of wiring error is one of the more > common ways that large electric or magnetic fields are generated in a > room by wiring. It is fairly easily corrected by a knowledgeable > electrician -- neutral wires (and certainly hot wires!) must be kept > separate for each circuit and not connected to any other circuit, and > the two current carrying conductors (hot/neutral) for any branch > should always be routed together. > > The telltale sign of this kind of wiring error is that the fields > jump throughout the room (not just near the appliance) whenever a > light switch or appliance is turned on, and then return to low values > when that appliance is turned off. These fields will be strong even > if the actual appliance does not produce any field at all. I have > a small electric heater which I use for tests, as it draws high > current but doesn't produce much field. This makes any wiring > issues on the circuit quickly apparent as fields throughout the room > are strongest when current draw is highest. > > Some appliances produce high frequency harmonics on the power line > (computers, for instance). These devices cause especially acute > problems when plugged into circuits which are improperly wired, as > the resulting magnetic/electric field throughout the room then also > contains high frequency harmonics, which some people (including me) > find intolerable. Yes, I have found the stetzer filters helpful in > this case, but fixing the wiring problem is also required. No amount > of filtration can solve the problems of bad wiring. > > You can often find the source of the wiring problems by plugging in a > load (like a portable heater), provoking the strong field, and then > using a ELF magnetic field meter (trifield works) to scan the wall to > find the wiring - the strongest fields will be around the wiring. > Sometimes by following the wiring (using the magnetic field as a > guide), you can find a junction box where neutrals are improperly > tied together. This technique worked for me. > > Of course, I would suggest you contact a qualified electrician before > making any changes to your wiring. This information should be > understandable to most electricians, although some seem clueless that > tying neutrals from different circuits together is a bad idea. > > Hope that was helpful -- Garth > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 27, 2006, at 8:39 PM, kattemayo wrote: > > > > > To anyone: > > > > as Marc wrote > > > >>>>> - some people have miswired outlets, so the lights could > > be emitting a far greater field than necessary (solution > > - fix the outlet) <<<< > > > > Can I *very easily* determine this myself? Or the Head of > > Maintainince for my building? Any Electrician friend? > > > > Just wondering if there is a simple no-cost way to determine. > > Then, what process and cost are needed to fix things. > > > > {Does each outlet and fixture get tested/changed individually?} > > > > What should I ask for or watch myself or when asking for help? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Katrina > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > |
In reply to this post by Garth Hitchens
I have had at least 7 different electricians at my houses over the past
6 years and all but one have ever heard that there could be a problem with tying too many neutrals together. So I totally agree with your statement Garth and I appreciate the well written explanation in your email. Charles Keen at [hidden email] was the first one to explain it to me and then to a couple of my electricians so they could eventually fix my house. If your electrician gives you any crap, contact Charles. He has been successful in explaining it over the phone. I suggest you make a deal first with your electrician, that if Charles can explain it and the electrician finds it true in your house, that the electrician will send Charles money for phone time. The electrician is getting schooled, a great continuing education, on the job training and has a chance to stop making people sick. What is the price for that? He should definitely not charge you! Andrew On Dec 28, 2006, at 2:32 AM, Garth Hitchens wrote: > some seem clueless that > tying neutrals from different circuits together is a bad idea |
In reply to this post by Katrina
>>>>> although some seem clueless that tying neutrals from different
>>>>> circuits together is a bad idea<<<<< > > This is the impression I've had. So, in consulting a Professional > ( either through management, a willing friend as a favor OR > someone I'm paying), how can I establish that they WILL know the > whole picture ie: not be clueless? > > And, whoever it is, would showing them your post be a good idea? Hi Katrina! I would suggest showing them my post and seeing if they understand it. If not, keep searching. I realize it can be frustrating. I would also be willing to talk with them briefly on the phone. Garth |
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