Marc/Arjuna - beware laptops too - also blowdryers

foreword:
I'm best reachable via my e-link (whenever...) due to E.S.

Marc, was it Arjuna who advised laptop with battery?

Anyway, out of desperation, I contacted THE top authority in Sweden.
He referred me to a severely E.S. light-sensitive circuit d3esigner,
who had headed a team at Ericksson all of whom became severely ill.

He, in turn, said that many people gave him feedback that battery
operated laptops were NO good.

He himself has a rig-up he devised, including projector, all of which
I gather are unobtainable & unaffordable. I could barely hear him
clearly, due to his custom-phone rig-up.

Bottom line:

He says that, other than using projectors, he knows of no monitors
catering to light sensitive people such as me.

He also agreed with my speculation that binoculars may not help me,
since I'd be viewing "light" anyway, even if at a distance.

P.S. Just wanted to add a warning that I suspect my radiant blowdryer
has been thinning my hair & burning my scalp. (I.E. it's a combo of
LIGHT-PLUS-EMF. no wonder...

Regards,
Minni

hi

i think you are talking about per segerbach who lives in a forest in
sweden. He uses an led projector a toshiba one i think, which you can buy
now in usa and uk.

what you mean by e-link minni, also do you have problems with uva/uvb and
daylight outside burning you're skin.

best
pete





On Sun, 26 November, 2006 11:51 pm, minnimall wrote:

> He, in turn, said that many people gave him feedback that battery
> operated laptops were NO good.

Well, if Shivani says that it works for her, then that's good enough
for me. It's a bit silly to believe some "expert opinion" over someone's
first-hand experience.

> He says that, other than using projectors, he knows of no monitors
> catering to light sensitive people such as me.

I suspect the projectors are good because you are further away from
the electronics. Because from a light standpoint, you can certainly
reduce the light-levels on a CRT or LCD monitor to the same level
as a projector will put out.

Have you tried covering an LCD or CRT screen with cardboard, and then
see if you are still sensitive to it? It wouldn't be putting out
*any* light then, but I suspect that you'd still get symptoms from it.

Marc

Minni, are you just light sensitive? Or also sensitive to the
electrical frequencies common in electronic equipment?

I remain very frequency sensitive and have to be careful where I go.
Mostly just stay at home. However, I can use my laptop on battery only very
comfortably. (Of course, I have checked out our entire electrical
environment, so I am not being accidentally hit by other stressers. I have also
optimized nutrition, work with a fine Classical Homeopath, got all the metal and
root canals out of my mouth.... All of these are important.)

Who was THE Swedish authority you spoke to? Was it Olle Johansson?

I remember Olle talking about am extrtemely light sensitive person, and
it seems to me that she got better from some particular nutrient being added
to her diet. I don't recall the details, but Olle would.

Regards,
Shivani


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ok, to add one more opinion to the issue of Laptop computers.

In my experience, using a laptop, especially on your lap, could be
asking for trouble, depending on the design of the laptop.

One of the first devices that I found that I was electrically
sensitive to was a 17" Apple Powerbook G4 laptop. I would get
intense dizziness and tinnitus within minutes of using it, regardless
of whether it was plugged in or not. Using it on my lap
exacerbated the effect. Upon examining the magnetic field with a
spectrum analyzer, it put out a large amount of "repetitively pulsed
electronic noise" from directly below my left wrist near the keyboard
area.

I ultimately had to stop using it due to the symptoms.
Interestingly, another person with a 17" powerbook G4 mentioned to me
independently that they had symptoms when using the laptop (again,
off power). This model is no longer produced, having been replaced
by the Intel-based MacBook and MacBook pro line.

I have since extensively used an apple MacBook as well as a Macbook
Pro that LOOKS exactly like the Powerbook that gave me trouble, and
neither seems to cause me much trouble even when plugged in (all
computers bother me some). My spectrum analyzer still shows a fair
bit of noise, but at different frequencies and pulse rates.

from this I conclude that it is not just using a laptop or not, or
if it is plugged in or not, but that the internal design of the
laptop can also have a profound effect. Although it sounds odd, I
have found that at least for the Apple laptops, the switch from
motorola G4 to Intel's CPU seemed to change things enough that my ES
is not triggered anywhere nearly as much.

As Shivani has mentioned, the high frequency noise caused by internal
power conversion circuitry seems to be a key factor in ES issues.
While some of these are only active when the unit is powered by AC
power, most (like the flourescent display inverter, and dc/dc
inverters) are active anytime the laptop is in use, regardless of if
the unit is plugged in or not. And many of these are located just an
inch from your palms when you are using the laptop keyboard.

As a result, I find my ES symptoms are least triggered by using
either the laptop OR a desktop computer with standard (external)
keyboard and mouse to keep my body away from the internals of the
computer as much as possible.

Finally, I would mention that I have found it useful to keep the
actual power adapter unit for the laptop as far from my body as
possible when using a laptop "plugged in".

Hope that is useful for someone. Of course, your mileage may vary.

Garth

On Nov 27, 2006, at 7:26 AM, Marc Martin wrote:

>> He, in turn, said that many people gave him feedback that battery
>> operated laptops were NO good.
>
> Well, if Shivani says that it works for her, then that's good enough
> for me. It's a bit silly to believe some "expert opinion" over
> someone's
> first-hand experience.

--- In [hidden email], SArjuna@... wrote:
>
> Minni, are you just light sensitive? Or also sensitive to the
> electrical frequencies common in electronic equipment?  
>
> I remain very frequency sensitive and have to be careful where
I go.  
> Mostly just stay at home. However, I can use my laptop on battery
only very
> comfortably. (Of course, I have checked out our entire electrical
> environment, so I am not being accidentally hit by other stressers.
I have also
> optimized nutrition, work with a fine Classical Homeopath, got all
the metal and
> root canals out of my mouth.... All of these are important.)
>
> Who was THE Swedish authority you spoke to? Was it Olle
Johansson?
>
> I remember Olle talking about am extrtemely light sensitive
person, and
> it seems to me that she got better from some particular nutrient
being added
> to her diet. I don't recall the details, but Olle would.
>
> Regards,
> Shivani
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, I suffer from ES, and have an EE background.
from my experience, no relief has been obtained by
running my HP laptop (1.7 ghz) on the battery.

Why does Shivani finds relief whereas I do not? Perhaps
her particular laptop slows the CPU/bus clock speed when
running on the battery.

For sure my HP is an ES sufferer's worst enemy when running
at full clock speed. Some relief is found by slowing the
CPU clock down by using "minimal power management".

Not too surprisingly, I don't get too fried by an IBM T20.
The CPU runs at a tepid 700 mhz, and has a slower bus and
graphics engine.
               
We're getting cooked by these damned high frequency devices.
Could it be that's why Intel is going dual core rather than
running at faster and faster clock speeds?

My buddy worked for Digital some time ago. They built vT100
terminals. People got sick while using them. So Digital
changed the frequency a bit, not sure higher or lower, but
that apparently helped.

These corporations know damn well that people are getting
sick from their products, but they'll keep the charade
going as long as possible.

Chin up.            
www.ahappyhabitat.com  

> Finally, I would mention that I have found it useful to keep the
> actual power adapter unit for the laptop as far from my body as
> possible when using a laptop "plugged in".

Yes, that was my experience as well when I was more sensitive.
Keep the CPU and monitor and power adapter as far away from you
as possible, and use extension cords if that will help get them
even further away. Also, laptops were nasty because they were
so close to me, and also because I reacted strongly to LCD screens.
I'm not so sure about the mouse -- whether it should be a ball-mouse
or if a laser-mouse is okay... I've generally used a ball-mouse
just to be safe (still easily found on eBay!)

However, as I've gotten better and found EMF devices which work
for me, my computer's CPU and monitor have edged a bit closer
to me, but probably still are further away than "normal". Also,
I still run my monitor (CRT) at 800x600 pixels, as I find this
more tolerable than higher resolutions, and also the bigger
pixels keeps me from leaning towards the monitor to see it!

Marc

> Not too surprisingly, I don't get too fried by an IBM T20.
> The CPU runs at a tepid 700 mhz, and has a slower bus and
> graphics engine.

I personally haven't noticed much difference with my symptoms
and the speed of the CPU. I was certainly fearing the
worst with each computer upgrade at work and at home, but
this turned out to be unfounded. I'm currently using a 3GHz
computer at home, and a 4GHz computer at work. Doesn't seem
to be any worse than the computers I was using 7 years ago.

For me, it is the MONITOR that's the main issue -- increase
the frequency of this (by upping the resolution) and this
is indeed a problem!

Marc

Garth Hitchens wrote:

> From this I conclude that it is not just using a laptop or not, or
> if it is plugged in or not, but that the internal design of the
> laptop can also have a profound effect. Although it sounds odd, I
> have found that at least for the Apple laptops, the switch from
> motorola G4 to Intel's CPU seemed to change things enough that my ES
> is not triggered anywhere nearly as much.


Doesn't sound odd to me at all. In fact that is exactly what I've found.
Each device or manufacturer has a different Engineering quality or Design.
It is Not differences in efficiency that concern me, but differences in emissions.

> As Shivani has mentioned, the high frequency noise caused by internal
> power conversion circuitry seems to be a key factor in ES issues.
> While some of these are only active when the unit is powered by AC
> power, most (like the flourescent display inverter, and dc/dc
> inverters) are active anytime the laptop is in use, regardless of if
> the unit is plugged in or not. And many of these are located just an
> inch from your palms when you are using the laptop keyboard.

Yes the biggest problem for me with laptops, is the proximity to the
emissions.
I am sensitive to DC as well as AC, so don't get any benefit from unplugging
and using only battery.

> As a result, I find my ES symptoms are least triggered by using
> either the laptop OR a desktop computer with standard (external)
> keyboard and mouse to keep my body away from the internals of the
> computer as much as possible.


Precisely.

> Finally, I would mention that I have found it useful to keep the
> actual power adapter unit for the laptop as far from my body as
> possible when using a laptop "plugged in".


Transformers produce some intense magnetic fields.
Also I've found it very interesting how
different transformer designs have widely differing field strengths.
A good use for a gaussmeter here.

Mix and match components or swap out boards until a quiet(er) solution is
found. (Yea, that can take a while...)

Stewart

--- In [hidden email], Marc Martin <marc@...> wrote:
Indeed LCDs are a huge problem. Can't get within yards of
one without getting fried. Currently using a Samsung
with an LED backlight, and power board removed from the
LCD frame. Modified it myself.

Replacing the flourescent lights with LEDs didn't help much.
Whereas, remoting the power board did help a good deal. I still
can't use the computer for long periods though.

At work (when I was employed) I did find my CRT (Dell Trinitron)
more tolerable than new the NEC LCD. Should've stuck with the
CRT.

Marc Martin wrote: That is interesting.
(Probably the worst fustration in this sensitivity, is nobody seems to
have the same exact symptoms or sensitivity at the same frequency.)

For me, the cpu speed does matter, but not necessarily between different
manufacturers. Slower is better, but upon chance of finding a board from
a different engineer, that runs faster, I'll pick the faster and
quieter. for example.

The graphics card has been a big contributor among computer components,
inside the box, that I can change, second to the Power supply. (Must
have RF filter) Again, slower is better, with exceptions.

I agree the monitor frequency is a large contributor.
What I want to add, is that choosing 800x600 is not the whole picture.
Is that at 75 Hz? 72 Hz, 70 Hz, or 60 Hz? etc.

When I fine tuned my display settings, discarding noisy vertical
frequencies, I found that I liked every resolution from 640x480 to
1024x768 (max) to be around 75Hz. At least on this monitor.

Is it legal to name names?
I sure wish there was a list of what components are quietest, instead of
the usual advertising sold to consumers.
I'd sure list the ones I didn't like.

Stewart

> Indeed LCDs are a huge problem. Can't get within yards of
> one without getting fried. Currently using a Samsung
> with an LED backlight, and power board removed from the
> LCD frame. Modified it myself.

What Samsung model are you using? The XL20? I haven't
seen any LED backlit models available to experiment with
yet... (although it doesn't sound like they are an
improvement)

> At work (when I was employed) I did find my CRT (Dell Trinitron)
> more tolerable than new the NEC LCD. Should've stuck with the
> CRT.

Yes, I use Dell Trinitrons at both work and at home! Most
everyone else at work has an LCD at this point, but I asked
to keep my old CRT.

Marc

> I agree the monitor frequency is a large contributor.
> What I want to add, is that choosing 800x600 is not the whole picture.
> Is that at 75 Hz? 72 Hz, 70 Hz, or 60 Hz? etc.

Generally, I've been finding that lower refresh rates are better,
as long as I'm not bothered by the flicker. At work, I think
I'm using 72hz. I thought I was using the same thing at home,
but I just checked and it said that I was using 60hz! (for
some reason I am unbothered by the flicker, even though it
is a CRT)

> Is it legal to name names?
> I sure wish there was a list of what components are quietest, instead of
> the usual advertising sold to consumers.
> I'd sure list the ones I didn't like.

I think it's good to be as specific as possible with brand names.

Marc

Hello,

for all who still believe that all this talk about laptops is old-women
talks, I have placed on:
http://www.milieuziektes.nl/Pagina109.html
new sounds.
I have played around with a Dell Latitude D600 laptop.
At startup of the computer I have recorded the sounds emanating from this
laptop, on the right part of the keyboard.
After successful loading of Windows XP, I recorded the sounds from the left
part of the keyboard.

Those are the frequencies one has to endure in your lap.
On your genitals.
Do not think that your clothing will shield them.

Nice huh ?


Greetings,
Charles Claessens
member Verband Baubiologie
www.milieuziektes.nl
www.milieuziektes.be
www.hetbitje.nl
checked by Norton Antivirus



----- Original Message -----
From: "Garth Hitchens" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 06:41
Subject: Re: [eSens] Marc/Arjuna - beware laptops too - also blowdryers

HiCharles:

You raise an interesting point, and it is about the complacency of
modern people in general about up-close technology. I am not
particuarly electrosensitive, and I do not respond at all in a
negative way to any laptop which I have ever met. And yet, despite
that fact, and rather simply because I am a scientist and engineer
and also a bit prudent, I never operate -- and I never have operated
-- a laptop PC on my lap for more than a few minutes at a time, and
instead, when I use them, I always insist upon sitting them on a
tabletop or desktop in front of me. On the other hand, my wife often
spends over 13 hours per day curled up on her office sofa with her
laptop on her lap and thighs, which kinda amazes me....

with care,
--Vinny

At 03:07 PM 12/2/2006, you wrote:

Vinny Pinto
[hidden email]

phone 301-694-1249

To see my informational websites and e-mail list groups, please go to:
http://www.vinnypinto.us

--- In [hidden email], Marc Martin <marc@...> wrote:
My Samsung is a SyncMaster 730B. The power board is
separate from the LCD driver board, so it was possible
to completely remove the power board after discarding
the high voltage fluourscent lamps.

Recently I found out that the LED Luxeon drivers I'm using
are switching mode (and produce RF noise). One of my projects
is to build an analog LED driver.

Marc, hang on to those Dell Trinitrons! I've tried many
monitors in my 16 years as a software engineer. NECs
are by far the worst, Dell Trinitrons the most tolerable.

My foray as an ES began in 2001 after I bought a new 19"
NEC CRT for home. I was glued to that blasted thing. To make
things worse, my apartment had an ambient magnetic field of 3
mili gauss.

Getting a Turion 64 equipped laptop (Lance Armstrong model) fried
me, even 6 ft away (live strong my butt). Then the NEC LCD at work,
and cell phone finished me off.

There are some EMF ratings for cars over here:
http://www.ahappyhabitat.com/cars.html

For instance, the driver of a Toyota tundra gets a whopping
7 mg field, whereas a Chevy 1500 is negligible. Good information
if your in the market for a car. I also found some Cadillac
models that put off a very low magnetic field.

Eli.

Marc Martin wrote:
In the past, I also tried to keep refresh rates down, around 60. It
leaves me curious why I can now tolerate the higher frequency. Or how
much of it is in the monitor's electronics.

>> Is it legal to name names?
>> I sure wish there was a list of what components are quietest, instead of
>> the usual advertising sold to consumers.
>> I'd sure list the ones I didn't like.
>>
>
> I think it's good to be as specific as possible with brand names.
>
>

Good! Lets see if I can type this out...

Back when I first became sensitive, there were many brands available in
the retail store where I worked. I could not tolerate the IBM ValuePoint
series, and blamed it on their power supply, being the common part. I
had to stick to the PS/2 series for my workstation, and back then IBM
made a big deal about engineering their top line for low emissions.
Spelled Quality.

5 years ago, when I started getting better, the old tech no longer did
what I wanted, and I got a Soho SY-7VBA 133U motherboard and Intel
Pentium 733. Nvidia GeForce 2MX was a good video card, and still is
quietest that I've tried. At that point I found the PS/2 Model 77 was
now noisier than the new box.

Later I tried an Intel 1.3Ghz Pentium3 Tualatin-core and decided it was
no big change.

I had to get rid of my NEC Multisync 3Ds, which was bothering me more by
whining and whistling, and because my brother's Samsung Syncmaster
531TFT was ok, I started exploring LCD monitors.
Atec Neoview AL181 18" LCD w/TV was ok, but not as clear or fast.
Viewsonic VX900 19" LCD was bad.
Planar PL1700 17" LCD is Very Good and quiet.

Seems there is a line between 17 and 19 inch. Larger is not better.

Last year I tried an Asus Geforce 4 MX440 and did Not like it. But the
NVidia GeForce4 MX 440 DVI (with a different card design) was ok. The
cards that worked fast enough to need a fan, were categorically worse.

When I discovered Stetzer filters, I mixed and matched various power
supplies with motherboards.
Just swapping the power supply made a big difference on the GS meter.
Going from PowMax 300W ATX to a SunPower 300W made the GS reading go
from 780 down to 110-120.

Just swapping 4 power supplies and 4 motherboards and 5 video cards and
other cards/drives around made a long page of notes of various
combinations that emphasized how little it takes to change the emission
levels.

PowMax 300W dual power supply was bad. Probably the extra circuitry for
switching back and forth.

Steven's computer was Asus K7M with AMD-750Mhz and 3dfx Voodoo3 graphics
and FSP-250W power supply.
It was fairly quiet, too bad the hard drive controller went out. Stetzer
reading on that computer was 60GS.

His new computer is MSI K7T266Pro2 with AMD XP-1700 at 1.4Ghz
withGeforce2 MX400 and PowMax 250W power supply. Before components got
swapped around, i thought it was fairly quiet. Enough so, that I
explored getting another MSI motherboard. I found there was a
significant difference between the Pro2 and Pro2A. So each design has
it's own fingerprint. Makes it hard to compare Manufacturers.

My current motherboard is Asus A7V8X-X with AMD AthlonXP 2000
Thoroughbred. With the Sunpower and Geforce4 in an aluminum metal case,
my Stetzer reading is 115 GS.

Steven's monitor setting is 1024x768 at 70Hz vertical refresh. and the
other resolutions his X server is setup with, 640x and 800x are for
75Hz, and they are definitely noisy to both of us. I'll have to input
some 60Hz configurations and see how those fare. (That's why he can't
stand the lower resolutions...ah ha)

This year after getting a Spectran spectrum datalogger, I "needed" a
laptop to get readings from the field.
Got an IBM Thinkpad A20m 2628-41U at 700MHz. Definitely Not quiet. but
somewhat tolerable... from which I made the graphs on my web page
<http://www.geocities.com/sandreas41/spectrumGraphs.html>. On March 18,
I aimed the antenna at the Thinkpad, so it shows up there.

Other equipment to note:
APC power Back-UPS very bad. Anything to do with power conversion DC to
AC has been noisy.

KSI InfraRed keyboard. In an attempt to keep my hand away from the
mouse, I tried this. Unfortunately, the circuitry powered by 2 AA
batteries was not much better, and showed up on the ZapChecker too.
Due to technical problems, locking up 1 second every time I moved the
mouse left at a certain speed, I gave up that idea.

Telephones:
I no longer have anything to do with transformers. If it needs to be
plugged in to AC power, it is noisy. Not just magnetically.
No caller ID, no LCD display.
I like the GE phones, models 2-9315, 2-9316, and 2-9433.

Hope this is useful!
Stewart


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]