DITCH the DECT...pleeeease
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It pains me to suggest this but for people whose neighbours simply
won't DITCH THE DECT maybe they would accept a 'safer' alternative. Apparently, the Orchid base only transmits when in use and the handsets have intelligent power management. See wirelessfacts.co.uk for more details. |
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A lot of cordless phones I tested here in the US only transmit when in use.
Some in particular that worked this way were Uniden "PowerMax" phones and some Panasonic phones. They do send a huge blast when first powered on. I would not recommend changing phones unless you're sure the one you have now is a problem... changing frequencies and analog to digital may possibly make matters much worse? Bill On 9/11/07, richardx21 <[hidden email]> wrote: > > It pains me to suggest this but for people whose neighbours simply > won't DITCH THE DECT maybe they would accept a 'safer' alternative. > Apparently, the Orchid base only transmits when in use and the > handsets have intelligent power management. See wirelessfacts.co.uk > for more details. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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In reply to this post by richardx21
In a message dated 9/11/2007 11:47:51 PM GMT Daylight Time, [hidden email] writes: Bill On 9/11/07, richardx21 <_richardx21@yahoo.richa_ (mailto:[hidden email]) > wrote: > > It pains me to suggest this but for people whose neighbours simply > won't DITCH THE DECT maybe they would accept a 'safer' alternative. > Apparently, the Orchid base only transmits when in use and the > handsets have intelligent power management. See wirelessfacts. hand > for more details. > > > PAUL UK I bought my neighbour an old analogue cordless and he is happy as larry for the moment. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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In reply to this post by BiBrun
Of course all wireless phones transmit when in use, also the analogue ones.
But that is not the point. The point is, that the base stations of ALL DECT phones keep emitting signals, whether you use the phone or not. And they do that 24 hours a day. So, if you measured a lot of cordless phones in the US, and you did not find signals on the base stations, that means: 1. they were not according the DECT principle, so they are analogue, or 2. they were DECT phones, but not DECT 1, but DECT 2. DECT1 uses 1880-1900 MHz. DECT2 uses 5725-5825 MHz, and that lies outside the measuring range of most RF meters Greetings, Charles Claessens member Verband Baubiologie www.milieuziektes.nl www.milieuziektes.be www.minderstraling.nl www.hetbitje.nl checked by Bitdefender ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Bruno" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 00:47 Subject: Re: [eSens] DITCH the DECT...pleeeease >A lot of cordless phones I tested here in the US only transmit when in use. > > Some in particular that worked this way were Uniden "PowerMax" phones > and some Panasonic phones. They do send a huge blast when first powered > on. > > I would not recommend changing phones unless you're sure the one you have > now is a problem... changing frequencies and analog to digital may > possibly > make > matters much worse? > > Bill > > On 9/11/07, richardx21 <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> It pains me to suggest this but for people whose neighbours simply >> won't DITCH THE DECT maybe they would accept a 'safer' alternative. >> Apparently, the Orchid base only transmits when in use and the >> handsets have intelligent power management. See wirelessfacts.co.uk >> for more details. >> >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > |
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In reply to this post by richardx21
In a message dated 9/12/2007 10:06:41 AM GMT Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes: DECT1 uses 1880-1900 MHz. DECT2 uses 5725-5825 MHz, and that lies outside the measuring range of most RF meters PAUL UK REPLIES I understand that wifi also operates at close to dect 2 frequencies. My neighbour has a wifi router about 9 meters from where I sit here, it is in a glass house/room so no sheilding, but nevertheless me elctrosmog detector does not pick it up perhaps it is a high frequency one I do not know, my freind picked up loads of wifi, umts, and tv in my house using a profi meter, which is no longer made, as I have tried to stay at home to work instead of an office I thought I was doing myself a favour but actually I am probably only a little better off, but not much no flourescent lights is good. an so the story goes on... !!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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In reply to this post by richardx21
I am hoping that the research indicating increased risk of brain cancer
with mobile phone use, will have an impact on cordless phone users too. I've asked Bolton Council for a copy of the guidance they have apparently just issued to their employees about using mobile phones and other such devices. They're sending me a copy, so i'll get the exact wording, which sounds like it may be a bit vague and need clarifying. It all helps.. --- In [hidden email], "richardx21" <richardx21@...> wrote: > > It pains me to suggest this but for people whose neighbours simply > won't DITCH THE DECT maybe they would accept a 'safer' alternative. > Apparently, the Orchid base only transmits when in use and the > handsets have intelligent power management. See wirelessfacts.co.uk > for more details. > |
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In reply to this post by PUK
To Charles: gosh, i'd never heard of DECT 2! Can you confirm if
analogue phones are based on something called the CT1+ standard. It's something mentioned in the Swiss report on electrosmog. Paul: do you have the details of the phone you bought for your neighbour. It would be useful to have them, especially as your neighbour seems to be fairly happy with it. ta j --- In [hidden email], paulpjc@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 9/11/2007 11:47:51 PM GMT Daylight Time, wbruno@... > writes: > > Bill > > On 9/11/07, richardx21 <_richardx21@..._ > (mailto:richardx21@...) > wrote: > > > > It pains me to suggest this but for people whose neighbours simply > > won't DITCH THE DECT maybe they would accept a 'safer' alternative. > > Apparently, the Orchid base only transmits when in use and the > > handsets have intelligent power management. See wirelessfacts. hand > > for more details. > > > > > > > > > > PAUL UK > I bought my neighbour an old analogue cordless and he is happy as larry for > the moment. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > |
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Yes, the wireless analogue phones work according CT1+.
Of course, they radiate a little, when you phone (I have measured that and will publih it shortly) but when you do not phone, there is no radiation. There are still a few companies that sell CT1+ phone, although it is not allowed any more. They want to use those frequency bands for other purposes. But as long as you use them at your home, nobody can do anything against it, because the range is very limited, and you cannot hinder neighbours, or so. Greetings, Charles Claessens member Verband Baubiologie www.milieuziektes.nl www.milieuziektes.be www.hetbitje.nl checked by Bitdefender ----- Original Message ----- From: "asurisuk" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 14:33 Subject: [eSens] Re: DITCH the DECT...pleeeease > To Charles: gosh, i'd never heard of DECT 2! Can you confirm if > analogue phones are based on something called the CT1+ standard. > It's something mentioned in the Swiss report on electrosmog. > > Paul: do you have the details of the phone you bought for your > neighbour. It would be useful to have them, especially as your > neighbour seems to be fairly happy with it. > > ta > j > > --- In [hidden email], paulpjc@... wrote: >> >> >> In a message dated 9/11/2007 11:47:51 PM GMT Daylight Time, > wbruno@... >> writes: >> >> Bill >> >> On 9/11/07, richardx21 <_richardx21@..._ >> (mailto:richardx21@...) > wrote: >> > >> > It pains me to suggest this but for people whose neighbours > simply >> > won't DITCH THE DECT maybe they would accept a 'safer' > alternative. >> > Apparently, the Orchid base only transmits when in use and the >> > handsets have intelligent power management. See wirelessfacts. > hand >> > for more details. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> PAUL UK >> I bought my neighbour an old analogue cordless and he is happy as > larry for >> the moment. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > |
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In reply to this post by richardx21
In a message dated 9/12/2007 1:34:41 PM GMT Daylight Time, [hidden email] writes: Paul: do you have the details of the phone you bought for your neighbour. It would be useful to have them, especially as your neighbour seems to be fairly happy with it. paul uk replies found it in a local newspaper for sale, just an old analogue one my mother in law got a brand new one from a store in norway thank heavans she listened to my advice. p [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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In reply to this post by charles-4
Your conclusions may be right in Europe, but not in the US
(wikipedia says the E in DECT used to stand for European). DECT phones are now available in the US but only in the last couple years (FCC changed its rules to let them in). We mostly have other kinds of digital phones, with labels like DSS or FHSS or DSSS. Most of these are 2.4 GHz (which is dumb because microwave ovens or WiFi cause interference; one reason DECT is coming in) but the newest ones are indeed 5.8 GHz. I'm unclear about the IRIS phone- is it some variant of DECT that does not transmit 24/7? Bill On 9/12/07, charles <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Of course all wireless phones transmit when in use, also the analogue > ones. > > But that is not the point. > The point is, that the base stations of ALL DECT phones keep emitting > signals, whether you use the phone or not. > And they do that 24 hours a day. > > So, if you measured a lot of cordless phones in the US, and you did not > find > signals on the base stations, that means: > > 1. they were not according the DECT principle, so they are analogue, or > 2. they were DECT phones, but not DECT 1, but DECT 2. > > DECT1 uses 1880-1900 MHz. > DECT2 uses 5725-5825 MHz, and that lies outside the measuring range of > most > RF meters > > Greetings, > Charles Claessens > member Verband Baubiologie > www.milieuziektes.nl > www.milieuziektes.be > www.minderstraling.nl > www.hetbitje.nl > checked by Bitdefender > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Bruno" <[hidden email] <wbruno%40gmail.com>> > To: <[hidden email] <eSens%40yahoogroups.com>> > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 00:47 > Subject: Re: [eSens] DITCH the DECT...pleeeease > > >A lot of cordless phones I tested here in the US only transmit when in > use. > > > > Some in particular that worked this way were Uniden "PowerMax" phones > > and some Panasonic phones. They do send a huge blast when first powered > > on. > > > > I would not recommend changing phones unless you're sure the one you > have > > now is a problem... changing frequencies and analog to digital may > > possibly > > make > > matters much worse? > > > > Bill > > > > On 9/11/07, richardx21 <[hidden email]<richardx21%40yahoo.co.uk>> > wrote: > >> > >> It pains me to suggest this but for people whose neighbours simply > >> won't DITCH THE DECT maybe they would accept a 'safer' alternative. > >> Apparently, the Orchid base only transmits when in use and the > >> handsets have intelligent power management. See wirelessfacts.co.uk > >> for more details. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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I sent charles's comment to the owner of the website Richard X
mentioned that is selling the Orchid phone. He says this: "It has nothing to do with US protocol; put simply the base station (improved latest model from one on You Tube) lies dormant until a call comes in to the land line that the unit is attached to or the handset is dialed out from. Also whilst the handset is in reasonable proximity of the base station, radiation from the handset to the brain compared to a normal Dect handset is reduced by 70%." --- In [hidden email], "Bill Bruno" <wbruno@...> wrote: > > Your conclusions may be right in Europe, but not in the US > (wikipedia says the E in DECT used to stand for European). > DECT phones are now available in the US but only in the last > couple years (FCC changed its rules to let them in). > We mostly have other kinds of digital phones, > with labels like DSS or FHSS or DSSS. Most of these are 2.4 GHz > (which is dumb because microwave ovens or WiFi cause interference; > one reason DECT is coming in) but the newest ones are indeed 5.8 GHz. > > I'm unclear about the IRIS phone- is it some variant of DECT that > does not transmit 24/7? > > Bill > > On 9/12/07, charles <charles@...> wrote: > > > > Of course all wireless phones transmit when in use, also the analogue > > ones. > > > > But that is not the point. > > The point is, that the base stations of ALL DECT phones keep emitting > > signals, whether you use the phone or not. > > And they do that 24 hours a day. > > > > So, if you measured a lot of cordless phones in the US, and you did not > > find > > signals on the base stations, that means: > > > > 1. they were not according the DECT principle, so they are analogue, or > > 2. they were DECT phones, but not DECT 1, but DECT 2. > > > > DECT1 uses 1880-1900 MHz. > > DECT2 uses 5725-5825 MHz, and that lies outside the measuring range of > > most > > RF meters > > > > Greetings, > > Charles Claessens > > member Verband Baubiologie > > www.milieuziektes.nl > > www.milieuziektes.be > > www.minderstraling.nl > > www.hetbitje.nl > > checked by Bitdefender > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Bruno" <wbruno@... <wbruno%40gmail.com>> > > To: <[hidden email] <eSens%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 00:47 > > Subject: Re: [eSens] DITCH the DECT...pleeeease > > > > >A lot of cordless phones I tested here in the US only transmit > > use. > > > > > > Some in particular that worked this way were Uniden "PowerMax" phones > > > and some Panasonic phones. They do send a huge blast when first powered > > > on. > > > > > > I would not recommend changing phones unless you're sure the one you > > have > > > now is a problem... changing frequencies and analog to digital may > > > possibly > > > make > > > matters much worse? > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > On 9/11/07, richardx21 <richardx21@...<richardx21% 40yahoo.co.uk>> > > wrote: > > >> > > >> It pains me to suggest this but for people whose neighbours simply > > >> won't DITCH THE DECT maybe they would accept a 'safer' alternative. > > >> Apparently, the Orchid base only transmits when in use and the > > >> handsets have intelligent power management. See wirelessfacts.co.uk > > >> for more details. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > |
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It turns out the Orchid Phone current models 309 and 329 TAM (integral Telephone Answering Machine) is slightly different from as previously described! Electro SensitivityUK www.es-uk.org.uk <http://www.es-uk.org.uk> have an Orchid phone on evaluation and now I've managed to get my hands on it, its clear from an ES perspective how it works. As long as the handset is in the base station cradle/charger the RF is supressed unless the phone is being rung. So if you plug the base into your out-of-the-way phone socket and have the handset next to your desk/bed etc. then the base unit transmits continuously just like any other DECT phone. There is a handy little green light marke 'low radiation' on the front of the base station that glows when the handset is in the cradle. However - the good folks at Orchid Electronics advise that they are bringing out a multi-handset model in the very near future. There is a good chance that the RF in this new model will remain supressed so long as a handset is in the base station/charger cradle and that a second (and possibly any subsequent) handset(s) could be near where people actually want to use it and RF silent until a call comes in. I am hoping for a call next week from their technical people to advise and will post here accordingly. Also Re How Normal DECT Phones Work: If a DECT phone is installed on a line with ordinary telephones, when a call comes in, all associated DECT handsets perform an RF handshaking with the base station thus markedly raising the ambient RF for a few seconds. If the call is subsequently taken on one of the ordinary phones, the handset all go silent again but of course a normal DECT base will continue to pump out its continuous signal. --- In [hidden email], "asurisuk" <asurisuk@...> wrote: > > I sent charles's comment to the owner of the website Richard X > mentioned that is selling the Orchid phone. He says this: > > "It has nothing to do with US protocol; put simply the base station > (improved latest model from one on You Tube) lies dormant until a > call comes in to the land line that the unit is attached to or the > handset is dialed out from. Also whilst the handset is in reasonable > proximity of the base station, radiation from the handset to the > brain compared to a normal Dect handset is reduced by 70%." > > > > > > --- In [hidden email], "Bill Bruno" wbruno@ wrote: > > > > Your conclusions may be right in Europe, but not in the US > > (wikipedia says the E in DECT used to stand for European). > > DECT phones are now available in the US but only in the last > > couple years (FCC changed its rules to let them in). > > We mostly have other kinds of digital phones, > > with labels like DSS or FHSS or DSSS. Most of these are 2.4 GHz > > (which is dumb because microwave ovens or WiFi cause interference; > > one reason DECT is coming in) but the newest ones are indeed 5.8 > GHz. > > > > I'm unclear about the IRIS phone- is it some variant of DECT that > > does not transmit 24/7? > > > > Bill > > > > On 9/12/07, charles charles@ wrote: > > > > > > Of course all wireless phones transmit when in use, also the > analogue > > > ones. > > > > > > But that is not the point. > > > The point is, that the base stations of ALL DECT phones keep > emitting > > > signals, whether you use the phone or not. > > > And they do that 24 hours a day. > > > > > > So, if you measured a lot of cordless phones in the US, and you > did not > > > find > > > signals on the base stations, that means: > > > > > > 1. they were not according the DECT principle, so they are > analogue, or > > > 2. they were DECT phones, but not DECT 1, but DECT 2. > > > > > > DECT1 uses 1880-1900 MHz. > > > DECT2 uses 5725-5825 MHz, and that lies outside the measuring > range of > > > most > > > RF meters > > > > > > Greetings, > > > Charles Claessens > > > member Verband Baubiologie > > > www.milieuziektes.nl > > > www.milieuziektes.be > > > www.minderstraling.nl > > > www.hetbitje.nl > > > checked by Bitdefender > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bill Bruno" wbruno@ <wbruno%40gmail.com>> > > > To: [hidden email] <eSens%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 00:47 > > > Subject: Re: [eSens] DITCH the DECT...pleeeease > > > > > > >A lot of cordless phones I tested here in the US only transmit > when in > > > use. > > > > > > > > Some in particular that worked this way were Uniden "PowerMax" > phones > > > > and some Panasonic phones. They do send a huge blast when first > powered > > > > on. > > > > > > > > I would not recommend changing phones unless you're sure the > one you > > > have > > > > now is a problem... changing frequencies and analog to digital > may > > > > possibly > > > > make > > > > matters much worse? > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > On 9/11/07, richardx21 richardx21@<richardx21% > 40yahoo.co.uk>> > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> It pains me to suggest this but for people whose neighbours > simply > > > >> won't DITCH THE DECT maybe they would accept a 'safer' > alternative. > > > >> Apparently, the Orchid base only transmits when in use and the > > > >> handsets have intelligent power management. See > wirelessfacts.co.uk > > > >> for more details. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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thanks for keeping in touch about this, as it is something one can
advise a neighbour to buy, or even a local council or other organisation to help protect their staff. Still a bit confused about its specifications. So its not an actual DECT phone then, that meets with that protocal, but its a phone that works wirelessly? Any idea what frequency the manufacturer says it uses? Does the Acousti Com/esmog detector pick it up? The best test of course is for an electrosensitive to have it in their house, because they would soon know if it was emitting pulsed RF 24/7 or not (I hope you're paying attention you provocation study people!) j --- In [hidden email], "richardx21" <richardx21@...> wrote: > > > It turns out the Orchid Phone current models 309 and 329 TAM (integral > Telephone Answering Machine) is slightly different from as previously > described! > > Electro SensitivityUK www.es-uk.org.uk <http://www.es-uk.org.uk> have > an Orchid phone on evaluation and now I've managed to get my hands on > it, its clear from an ES perspective how it works. > > As long as the handset is in the base station cradle/charger the RF is > supressed unless the phone is being rung. So if you plug the base into > your out-of-the-way phone socket and have the handset next to your > desk/bed etc. then the base unit transmits continuously just like any > other DECT phone. There is a handy little green light marke 'low > radiation' on the front of the base station that glows when the handset > is in the cradle. > > However - the good folks at Orchid Electronics advise that they are > bringing out a multi-handset model in the very near future. There is a > good chance that the RF in this new model will remain supressed so long > as a handset is in the base station/charger cradle and that a second > (and possibly any subsequent) handset(s) could be near where people > actually want to use it and RF silent until a call comes in. I am hoping > for a call next week from their technical people to advise and will post > here accordingly. > > Also Re How Normal DECT Phones Work: If a DECT phone is installed on a > line with ordinary telephones, when a call comes in, all associated DECT > handsets perform an RF handshaking with the base station thus markedly > raising the ambient RF for a few seconds. If the call is subsequently > taken on one of the ordinary phones, the handset all go silent again but > of course a normal DECT base will continue to pump out its continuous > signal. > > --- In [hidden email], "asurisuk" <asurisuk@> wrote: > > > > I sent charles's comment to the owner of the website Richard X > > mentioned that is selling the Orchid phone. He says this: > > > > "It has nothing to do with US protocol; put simply the base station > > (improved latest model from one on You Tube) lies dormant until a > > call comes in to the land line that the unit is attached to or the > > handset is dialed out from. Also whilst the handset is in reasonable > > proximity of the base station, radiation from the handset to the > > brain compared to a normal Dect handset is reduced by 70%." > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [hidden email], "Bill Bruno" wbruno@ wrote: > > > > > > Your conclusions may be right in Europe, but not in the US > > > (wikipedia says the E in DECT used to stand for European). > > > DECT phones are now available in the US but only in the last > > > couple years (FCC changed its rules to let them in). > > > We mostly have other kinds of digital phones, > > > with labels like DSS or FHSS or DSSS. Most of these are 2.4 GHz > > > (which is dumb because microwave ovens or WiFi cause > > > one reason DECT is coming in) but the newest ones are indeed 5.8 > > GHz. > > > > > > I'm unclear about the IRIS phone- is it some variant of DECT that > > > does not transmit 24/7? > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > On 9/12/07, charles charles@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Of course all wireless phones transmit when in use, also the > > analogue > > > > ones. > > > > > > > > But that is not the point. > > > > The point is, that the base stations of ALL DECT phones keep > > emitting > > > > signals, whether you use the phone or not. > > > > And they do that 24 hours a day. > > > > > > > > So, if you measured a lot of cordless phones in the US, and > > did not > > > > find > > > > signals on the base stations, that means: > > > > > > > > 1. they were not according the DECT principle, so they are > > analogue, or > > > > 2. they were DECT phones, but not DECT 1, but DECT 2. > > > > > > > > DECT1 uses 1880-1900 MHz. > > > > DECT2 uses 5725-5825 MHz, and that lies outside the measuring > > range of > > > > most > > > > RF meters > > > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > Charles Claessens > > > > member Verband Baubiologie > > > > www.milieuziektes.nl > > > > www.milieuziektes.be > > > > www.minderstraling.nl > > > > www.hetbitje.nl > > > > checked by Bitdefender > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Bill Bruno" wbruno@ <wbruno%40gmail.com>> > > > > To: [hidden email] <eSens%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 00:47 > > > > Subject: Re: [eSens] DITCH the DECT...pleeeease > > > > > > > > >A lot of cordless phones I tested here in the US only > > when in > > > > use. > > > > > > > > > > Some in particular that worked this way were Uniden "PowerMax" > > phones > > > > > and some Panasonic phones. They do send a huge blast when first > > powered > > > > > on. > > > > > > > > > > I would not recommend changing phones unless you're sure the > > one you > > > > have > > > > > now is a problem... changing frequencies and analog to digital > > may > > > > > possibly > > > > > make > > > > > matters much worse? > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > On 9/11/07, richardx21 richardx21@<richardx21% > > 40yahoo.co.uk>> > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> It pains me to suggest this but for people whose neighbours > > simply > > > > >> won't DITCH THE DECT maybe they would accept a 'safer' > > alternative. > > > > >> Apparently, the Orchid base only transmits when in use and > > > > >> handsets have intelligent power management. See > > wirelessfacts.co.uk > > > > >> for more details. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > |
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