DC-DC converters: very dirty RF?

Hey everyone,

Since the Asus Eee PC I tested showed a lot of high fields, and the screen is rather small to use with an external keyboard and mouse, I'm now lookingat a shielded LCD monitor from Low EMF Office in Italy; unlike "Safe Level", the guy really seems to go the whole way in making the monitor as low emission as possible.

Along with that I'm once again considering using a Mini ITX system from Logic Supply (a small, fanless computer with a solid state hard drive).

Many of their computers can be run from a DC source, which appeals to me, since I'll eventually be off grid and DC powered everything, anyway.

The thing is, to power them with DC, they use built in DC-DC converters, often under the name of "PicoPSU".  Some are strictly 12V converters, whileothers can accept a wide range of input voltage, some between 9 and 30 volts, and would up or down-regulate it accordingly.  I am certain these areswitching converters.

My question is, can anyone here say if these would be worse for RF emissions (both emitted and conducted) than, say, your average AC-DC converter usedin a desktop PC and monitor?

My assumption is not - only because they're only regulating the voltage, asopposed to regulating the voltage *and* changing high voltage AC to low voltage DC, in the case of a normal AC-DC adapter - but this is my assumption.  I don't really know for sure.

Since these fanless cases are aluminum, I'm not as worried about the RF coming through the air - I could always put the case in a shielded space.  But I would wonder about the RF getting conducted to the keyboard and mouse.  I'd certainly use ferrites, but if anyone has thoughts about this particular sort of DC-DC converter, I'd appreciate hearing them!

Thank you!

R.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All,



How does the Asrock Ion 330 fair in terms of EMF/Dirty power? It's
another Mini ITX system and looks to be a great PC.



Regards, David



From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of R.
Ticle
Sent: 15 January 2010 23:56
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: [eSens] DC-DC converters: very dirty RF?





Hey everyone,

Since the Asus Eee PC I tested showed a lot of high fields, and the screen
is rather small to use with an external keyboard and mouse, I'm now looking
at a shielded LCD monitor from Low EMF Office in Italy; unlike "Safe Level",
the guy really seems to go the whole way in making the monitor as low
emission as possible.

Along with that I'm once again considering using a Mini ITX system from
Logic Supply (a small, fanless computer with a solid state hard drive).

Many of their computers can be run from a DC source, which appeals to me,
since I'll eventually be off grid and DC powered everything, anyway.

The thing is, to power them with DC, they use built in DC-DC converters,
often under the name of "PicoPSU". Some are strictly 12V converters, while
others can accept a wide range of input voltage, some between 9 and 30
volts, and would up or down-regulate it accordingly. I am certain these are
switching converters.

My question is, can anyone here say if these would be worse for RF emissions
(both emitted and conducted) than, say, your average AC-DC converter used in
a desktop PC and monitor?

My assumption is not - only because they're only regulating the voltage, as
opposed to regulating the voltage *and* changing high voltage AC to low
voltage DC, in the case of a normal AC-DC adapter - but this is my
assumption. I don't really know for sure.

Since these fanless cases are aluminum, I'm not as worried about the RF
coming through the air - I could always put the case in a shielded space.
But I would wonder about the RF getting conducted to the keyboard and mouse.
I'd certainly use ferrites, but if anyone has thoughts about this particular
sort of DC-DC converter, I'd appreciate hearing them!

Thank you!

R.

__________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

http://www.flickr.com/gift/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It depends on how much power those DC-DC
converters are pushing. There's little you
can do with the smaller ones on the boards.
If they supply main power to the computer then
find out what voltages they're producing and
replace them with linear power supplies.

Eli

--- In [hidden email], "R. Ticle" <rticleone@...> wrote:

Hi Eli,

When you say "how much power" they're pushing, are you referring to watts required by the computer, or volts?

The systems I'm looking at range between 80 to 120 watts, and have AC-DC and DC-DC options of 12 or 19 volts...a couple also have wide input DC-DC converters, as wide as 6 to 30 volts.

Would the cleanest be a 12V DC-DC system attached to a 12V battery?

Regarding linear power supplies, do you mean, for example, if the computer requires 12 volts, to simply use a 12V linear power supply attached to the computer's AC-DC input, or to the DC-DC input, or...?

Thanks for the clarification!

R.



--- On Sat, 1/16/10, jaime_schunkewitz <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: jaime_schunkewitz <[hidden email]>
Subject: [eSens] Re: DC-DC converters: very dirty RF?
To: [hidden email]
Received: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 3:04 PM







 



 


   
     
     
     



It depends on how much power those DC-DC

converters are pushing. There's little you

can do with the smaller ones on the boards.

If they supply main power to the computer then

find out what voltages they're producing and

replace them with linear power supplies.



Eli



--- In eSens@yahoogroups. com, "R. Ticle" <rticleone@. ..> wrote:

>

> Hey everyone,

>

> Since the Asus Eee PC I tested showed a lot of high fields, and the screen is rather small to use with an external keyboard and mouse, I'm now looking at a shielded LCD monitor from Low EMF Office in Italy; unlike "Safe Level", the guy really seems to go the whole way in making the monitor as low emission as possible.

>

> Along with that I'm once again considering using a Mini ITX system from Logic Supply (a small, fanless computer with a solid state hard drive).

>

> Many of their computers can be run from a DC source, which appeals to me,since I'll eventually be off grid and DC powered everything, anyway.

>

> The thing is, to power them with DC, they use built in DC-DC converters, often under the name of "PicoPSU".  Some are strictly 12V converters, while others can accept a wide range of input voltage, some between 9 and 30 volts, and would up or down-regulate it accordingly.  I am certain these are switching converters.

>

> My question is, can anyone here say if these would be worse for RF emissions (both emitted and conducted) than, say, your average AC-DC converter used in a desktop PC and monitor?

>

> My assumption is not - only because they're only regulating the voltage, as opposed to regulating the voltage *and* changing high voltage AC to low voltage DC, in the case of a normal AC-DC adapter - but this is my assumption.  I don't really know for sure.

>

> Since these fanless cases are aluminum, I'm not as worried about the RF coming through the air - I could always put the case in a shielded space.  But I would wonder about the RF getting conducted to the keyboard and mouse.  I'd certainly use ferrites, but if anyone has thoughts about this particular sort of DC-DC converter, I'd appreciate hearing them!

>

> Thank you!

>

> R.

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

>

> http://www.flickr. com/gift/

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>





   
     

   
   


 



 






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It looks like the easiest way to power it is with
a regulated DC supply, say 12v. If your going
to use a battery then you'll need 15 or so volts
due to drop down voltage of the regulator. The other
option is to replace the external 12v AC/DC brick
(which is most likely switching) with a linear,
AC/DC regulated supply.


I'd don't see why it needs a DC/DC converter if the
computer input is 12v or 19v. It makes sense for the
wide range one to require a DC/DC converter. Is the
converter producing more than one voltage source for
the computer?

Eli

--- In [hidden email], "R. Ticle" <rticleone@...> wrote:

Hi Eli,

When you say to use a regulated DC supply, are you in this case referring to a linear DC supply connected to battery power? (Sorry, a silly question; I just want to make sure I understand you).

Regarding what I said about 12 and 19V, I apologize; I may not have been clear.  One of the computers can be seen here:

http://www.logicsupply.com/products/atom_gs_l05

The standard options for AC-DC, and DC-DC are both 12V.

Another computer, seen here, has 19V listed for its AC-DC supply.  There's no DC-DC option shown, but a rep from the company told me it could also use a wide input range DC-DC automotive power supply (6-30V input).

If I were, for example, to go with the first model I listed (12V), and wanted to run it from battery, would it be safe (EMF-wise) to use the integrated DC-DC converter with a 12V deep cycle battery? (Since the DC-DC converterwouldn't have to significantly alter the voltage?)

Or would it be best to create a linear regulator with, as you mention, a slightly higher battery voltage, attached to the computer's DC input?

Thanks very much again,

R.



--- On Sun, 1/17/10, jaime_schunkewitz <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: jaime_schunkewitz <[hidden email]>
Subject: [eSens] Re: DC-DC converters: very dirty RF?
To: [hidden email]
Received: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 12:28 AM







 



 


   
     
     
     

It looks like the easiest way to power it is with

a regulated DC supply, say 12v. If your going

to use a battery then you'll need 15 or so volts

due to drop down voltage of the regulator. The other

option is to replace the external 12v AC/DC brick

(which is most likely switching) with a linear,

AC/DC regulated supply.



I'd don't see why it needs a DC/DC converter if the

computer input is 12v or 19v. It makes sense for the

wide range one to require a DC/DC converter. Is the

converter producing more than one voltage source for

the computer?



Eli



--- In eSens@yahoogroups. com, "R. Ticle" <rticleone@. ..> wrote:

>

> Hi Eli,

>

> When you say "how much power" they're pushing, are you referring to wattsrequired by the computer, or volts?

>

> The systems I'm looking at range between 80 to 120 watts, and have AC-DC and DC-DC options of 12 or 19 volts...a couple also have wide input DC-DC converters, as wide as 6 to 30 volts.

>

> Would the cleanest be a 12V DC-DC system attached to a 12V battery?

>

> Regarding linear power supplies, do you mean, for example, if the computer requires 12 volts, to simply use a 12V linear power supply attached to the computer's AC-DC input, or to the DC-DC input, or...?

>

> Thanks for the clarification!

>

> R.

>

>

>

> --- On Sat, 1/16/10, jaime_schunkewitz <jaime_schunkewitz@ ...> wrote:

>

> From: jaime_schunkewitz <jaime_schunkewitz@ ...>

> Subject: [eSens] Re: DC-DC converters: very dirty RF?

> To: eSens@yahoogroups. com

> Received: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 3:04 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Â

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>    

>      

>      

>      

>

>

>

> It depends on how much power those DC-DC

>

> converters are pushing. There's little you

>

> can do with the smaller ones on the boards.

>

> If they supply main power to the computer then

>

> find out what voltages they're producing and

>

> replace them with linear power supplies.

>

>

>

> Eli

>

>

>

> --- In eSens@yahoogroups. com, "R. Ticle" <rticleone@ ..> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Hey everyone,

>

> >

>

> > Since the Asus Eee PC I tested showed a lot of high fields, and the screen is rather small to use with an external keyboard and mouse, I'm now looking at a shielded LCD monitor from Low EMF Office in Italy; unlike "Safe Level", the guy really seems to go the whole way in making the monitor as low emission as possible.

>

> >

>

> > Along with that I'm once again considering using a Mini ITX system fromLogic Supply (a small, fanless computer with a solid state hard drive).

>

> >

>

> > Many of their computers can be run from a DC source, which appeals to me, since I'll eventually be off grid and DC powered everything, anyway.

>

> >

>

> > The thing is, to power them with DC, they use built in DC-DC converters, often under the name of "PicoPSU". Some are strictly 12V converters, while others can accept a wide range of input voltage, some between 9 and 30 volts, and would up or down-regulate it accordingly. I am certain these are switching converters.

>

> >

>

> > My question is, can anyone here say if these would be worse for RF emissions (both emitted and conducted) than, say, your average AC-DC converter used in a desktop PC and monitor?

>

> >

>

> > My assumption is not - only because they're only regulating the voltage, as opposed to regulating the voltage *and* changing high voltage AC to low voltage DC, in the case of a normal AC-DC adapter - but this is my assumption. I don't really know for sure.

>

> >

>

> > Since these fanless cases are aluminum, I'm not as worried about the RFcoming through the air - I could always put the case in a shielded space. But I would wonder about the RF getting conducted to the keyboard and mouse. I'd certainly use ferrites, but if anyone has thoughts about this particular sort of DC-DC converter, I'd appreciate hearing them!

>

> >

>

> > Thank you!

>

> >

>

> > R.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

>

> > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

>

> >

>

> > http://www.flickr. com/gift/

>

> >

>

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>    

>      

>

>    

>    

>

>

>  

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos. yahoo.com/ newmail/overview 2/

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>





   
     

   
   


 



 






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have been running a 12V modem on a 12 V battery. No guarantee
it will work for you but I don't understand why Eli thinks you need 15V.

A regulated DC supply usually means AC to DC linear converter with
built-in regulator.

I can't predict confidently but if it's really converting 12 to 12 it may be
pretty OK. If not bypass it. Note that using Coolbook you can change
chip voltage on the fly so if it's a new Intel it certainly has DC to DC
inside.

On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 6:02 PM, R. Ticle <[hidden email]> wrote:


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Bill,

I think that (if I remember reading, or hearing from someone, not sure who)that with a linear DC regulator, the starting (input) voltage should be atleast 3 or so volts higher than the desired output...because the linear regulator can only down-regulate...?

Really, don't quote me on that; I'm quite a newbie when it comes to actual components and how they work.

Quote: "I can't predict confidently but if it's really converting 12 to 12 it may be
pretty OK."

I am hoping that's the case, too.  I'd like to hear what Eli or anyone has to say, as well.

When you say "bypass it" if it's not okay, do you mean to use a linear DC-DC regulator instead?

(Though it'd be nice to have clean AC power for it, I still prefer DC, and will need all DC stuff for the future, I think, when I'm off the grid).

Many thanks,

R.

--- On Sun, 1/17/10, Bill Bruno <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Bill Bruno <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] Re: DC-DC converters: very dirty RF?
To: [hidden email]
Received: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 1:28 AM

I have been running a 12V modem on a 12 V battery.  No guarantee
it will work for you but I don't understand why Eli thinks you need 15V.

A regulated DC supply usually means AC to DC linear converter with
built-in regulator.

I can't predict confidently but if it's really converting 12 to 12 it may be
pretty OK.  If not bypass it.  Note that using Coolbook you can change
chip voltage on the fly so if it's a new Intel it certainly has DC to DC
inside.

On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 6:02 PM, R. Ticle <[hidden email]> wrote:


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> When you say to use a regulated DC supply, are you in this case >referring to a linear DC supply connected to battery power? (Sorry, a >silly question; I just want to make sure I understand you).

Yes, a battery feeding a voltage regulator.

It seems you'll need to regulate the input voltage for the
12v DC-DC converters. For the wide range one (12-25v)
you may get away with a 12v deep cycle battery. They're
really 13.5 volts or so fully charged. I'd contact tech
support to confirm.

EMF wise they're probably similar. It seems you'd be better
off if you can run right from a battery without the regulator.

If you want to eliminate the DC-DC converter then you'd have
to determine the various voltage outputs of the PicoPSU-90
12V DC-DC ATX power converter, and replace them with linear
supplies. You're going to have to determine how noisy these
ATX power units are, and see if they're worth replacing.
Seems like that would be a pain to do.

Let us know how the monitor from low EMF office goes. His
monitors are very similar to what I did with mine. LEDs and
remote linear supplies. He also remotes the main LCD board,
whereas I just shielded mine.

To top it off, you may want to try fiber optic DVI and USB.
I'd get one of those computers with DVI output any way, in
case you do choose fiber in the future.
Eli

--- In [hidden email], "R. Ticle" <rticleone@...> wrote:

Hello Eli,

When you say "It seems you'll need to regulate the input voltage for the

12v DC-DC converters", (forgive me for not quite understanding), but how come? I thought that, if it's a DC-DC converter, it will automatically regulate the voltage to what's required...?

Or are you saying this as it would apply only to building a linear power supply and bypassing the switching DC-DC converter?

And when you say "EMF wise they're probably similar. It seems you'd be better

off if you can run right from a battery without the regulator", do you meanthat a switching DC converter would probably put out about the same EMF regardless of if it's adjusting the voltage by a small margin (ie, 12V battery to 12V computer) or by a wide range?

As for determining the various internal voltages put out by the DC-DC converter (for all the different components in the case) and replacing them, I agree, that would probably be a major pain in the butt!

If it turns out I could run the computer straight from a battery, I would; there's one thing I'm still not clear about:

If I were to bypass the switching DC-DC converter and either connect the computer directly to a battery, or to a battery with the voltage correctly regulated by a linear regulator, which input on the computer would I connect it (either the battery or the linear regulator) to? The input that the AC-DC adapter would normally plug in to? Or...?

Thank you again!

With the Low EMF Office monitor, yes, I think that's the way to go, from a battery as well.  I'll definitely report on it.

R.





--- On Sun, 1/17/10, jaime_schunkewitz <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: jaime_schunkewitz <[hidden email]>
Subject: [eSens] Re: DC-DC converters: very dirty RF?
To: [hidden email]
Received: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 4:03 AM







 



 


   
     
     
     



> When you say to use a regulated DC supply, are you in this case >referring to a linear DC supply connected to battery power? (Sorry, a >silly question; I just want to make sure I understand you).



Yes, a battery feeding a voltage regulator.



It seems you'll need to regulate the input voltage for the

12v DC-DC converters. For the wide range one (12-25v)

you may get away with a 12v deep cycle battery. They're

really 13.5 volts or so fully charged. I'd contact tech

support to confirm.



EMF wise they're probably similar. It seems you'd be better

off if you can run right from a battery without the regulator.



If you want to eliminate the DC-DC converter then you'd have

to determine the various voltage outputs of the PicoPSU-90

12V DC-DC ATX power converter, and replace them with linear

supplies. You're going to have to determine how noisy these

ATX power units are, and see if they're worth replacing.

Seems like that would be a pain to do.



Let us know how the monitor from low EMF office goes. His

monitors are very similar to what I did with mine. LEDs and

remote linear supplies. He also remotes the main LCD board,

whereas I just shielded mine.



To top it off, you may want to try fiber optic DVI and USB.

I'd get one of those computers with DVI output any way, in

case you do choose fiber in the future.

Eli



--- In eSens@yahoogroups. com, "R. Ticle" <rticleone@. ..> wrote:

>

> Hi Eli,

>

> When you say to use a regulated DC supply, are you in this case referringto a linear DC supply connected to battery power? (Sorry, a silly question; I just want to make sure I understand you).

>

> Regarding what I said about 12 and 19V, I apologize; I may not have been clear. One of the computers can be seen here:

>

> http://www.logicsup ply.com/products /atom_gs_ l05

>

> The standard options for AC-DC, and DC-DC are both 12V.

>

> Another computer, seen here, has 19V listed for its AC-DC supply. There's no DC-DC option shown, but a rep from the company told me it could also use a wide input range DC-DC automotive power supply (6-30V input).

>

> If I were, for example, to go with the first model I listed (12V), and wanted to run it from battery, would it be safe (EMF-wise) to use the integrated DC-DC converter with a 12V deep cycle battery? (Since the DC-DC converter wouldn't have to significantly alter the voltage?)

>

> Or would it be best to create a linear regulator with, as you mention, a slightly higher battery voltage, attached to the computer's DC input?

>

> Thanks very much again,

>

> R.

>

>

>

> --- On Sun, 1/17/10, jaime_schunkewitz <jaime_schunkewitz@ ...> wrote:

>

> From: jaime_schunkewitz <jaime_schunkewitz@ ...>

> Subject: [eSens] Re: DC-DC converters: very dirty RF?

> To: eSens@yahoogroups. com

> Received: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 12:28 AM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Â

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>    

>      

>      

>      

>

> It looks like the easiest way to power it is with

>

> a regulated DC supply, say 12v. If your going

>

> to use a battery then you'll need 15 or so volts

>

> due to drop down voltage of the regulator. The other

>

> option is to replace the external 12v AC/DC brick

>

> (which is most likely switching) with a linear,

>

> AC/DC regulated supply.

>

>

>

> I'd don't see why it needs a DC/DC converter if the

>

> computer input is 12v or 19v. It makes sense for the

>

> wide range one to require a DC/DC converter. Is the

>

> converter producing more than one voltage source for

>

> the computer?

>

>

>

> Eli

>

>

>

> --- In eSens@yahoogroups. com, "R. Ticle" <rticleone@ ..> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Hi Eli,

>

> >

>

> > When you say "how much power" they're pushing, are you referring to watts required by the computer, or volts?

>

> >

>

> > The systems I'm looking at range between 80 to 120 watts, and have AC-DC and DC-DC options of 12 or 19 volts...a couple also have wide input DC-DCconverters, as wide as 6 to 30 volts.

>

> >

>

> > Would the cleanest be a 12V DC-DC system attached to a 12V battery?

>

> >

>

> > Regarding linear power supplies, do you mean, for example, if the computer requires 12 volts, to simply use a 12V linear power supply attached to the computer's AC-DC input, or to the DC-DC input, or...?

>

> >

>

> > Thanks for the clarification!

>

> >

>

> > R.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > --- On Sat, 1/16/10, jaime_schunkewitz <jaime_schunkewitz@ ...> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > From: jaime_schunkewitz <jaime_schunkewitz@ ...>

>

> > Subject: [eSens] Re: DC-DC converters: very dirty RF?

>

> > To: eSens@yahoogroups. com

>

> > Received: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 3:04 PM

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Â

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >  

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >    

>

> >      

>

> >      

>

> >      

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > It depends on how much power those DC-DC

>

> >

>

> > converters are pushing. There's little you

>

> >

>

> > can do with the smaller ones on the boards.

>

> >

>

> > If they supply main power to the computer then

>

> >

>

> > find out what voltages they're producing and

>

> >

>

> > replace them with linear power supplies.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Eli

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > --- In eSens@yahoogroups. com, "R. Ticle" <rticleone@ ..> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Hey everyone,

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Since the Asus Eee PC I tested showed a lot of high fields, and the screen is rather small to use with an external keyboard and mouse, I'm now looking at a shielded LCD monitor from Low EMF Office in Italy; unlike "SafeLevel", the guy really seems to go the whole way in making the monitor as low emission as possible.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Along with that I'm once again considering using a Mini ITX system from Logic Supply (a small, fanless computer with a solid state hard drive).

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Many of their computers can be run from a DC source, which appeals tome, since I'll eventually be off grid and DC powered everything, anyway.

>

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> > > The thing is, to power them with DC, they use built in DC-DC converters, often under the name of "PicoPSU". Some are strictly 12V converters, while others can accept a wide range of input voltage, some between 9 and 30 volts, and would up or down-regulate it accordingly. I am certain these are switching converters.

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> > > My question is, can anyone here say if these would be worse for RF emissions (both emitted and conducted) than, say, your average AC-DC converter used in a desktop PC and monitor?

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> > > My assumption is not - only because they're only regulating the voltage, as opposed to regulating the voltage *and* changing high voltage AC to low voltage DC, in the case of a normal AC-DC adapter - but this is my assumption. I don't really know for sure.

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> > > Since these fanless cases are aluminum, I'm not as worried about the RF coming through the air - I could always put the case in a shielded space. But I would wonder about the RF getting conducted to the keyboard and mouse. I'd certainly use ferrites, but if anyone has thoughts about this particular sort of DC-DC converter, I'd appreciate hearing them!

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> > > Thank you!

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> > > R.

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> > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

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