Can anyone offer any advice?

I have an aversion to taking vitamins and the kind I have taken are food
based. A whole pill makes me nausea, although I can tolerate a half
pill. I have never seen benefit though from taking vitamins. Has
anyone? I prefer to use herbs in the form of tea and have also made my
own herbal vinegar's. I like to think eating a wholesome and varied diet
is enough, although I don't know. The vitamin industry is a huge profit
industry and so I am wary of whether or not vitamins are necessary. I
have studied about nutrition and diet since my twenties and learned
many theories contradict each other. I found I have to find my own way
with how food works for me. Things that I have been told are good for
me, like bee pollen I react to. Green algae feels like a non food.
Shopping at the farmers market is a favorite thing to do as is growing
my own food. I do take the supplement zeolite which is ridiculously
expensive and yet it seems to work for me. I trust my intuitive sense
about that even though I cannot say for sure its helpful. I just like
it. Sandi

> Are lots of people here overly sensitive to supplements?

> I have an aversion to taking vitamins and the kind I have taken are food
> based. A whole pill makes me nausea, although I can tolerate a half
> pill. I have never seen benefit though from taking vitamins. Has
> anyone?

I have certainly seen benefits from taking supplements, but not the
usual "vitamin & mineral" pills you see in the stores, which are
loaded with chemical equivalents which don't seem to do anything.
The more natural stuff works for me however, and I've seen benefits from
taking ionic minerals, digestive enzymes, essential fatty acids,
whole-food based vitamins, probiotics, seaweed-derived supplements,
super-antioxidants, natural heavy metal chelators, and immune
modulators.
Most of this stuff is expensive and not available in local stores, but
it is definitely helpful.

Marc

Thanks, Paul,
   
I will google that and see what I can find. I appreciate your sending memore info on cytokine research, even tho it is not directly to do with what I am researching.  
   
Thanks again,
Diane

[hidden email] wrote:
         
In a message dated 9/22/2007 4:16:45 AM GMT Daylight Time, [hidden email]
writes:

Hi, All,
>
> On the note of lymphatic overload, has anyone here ever had testing for
> cytokine production? I am just embarking on research into this area, so
> can't share any real info yet. It appears that celiacs and others who have
> many environmental sensitivities may have a communication problem in their
> immune systems where the body does not know when to shut off cytokine
> production. (If I have understood it correctly--I don't speak medical
> research doctor latin very well and need a medical dictionary to look up
> every other word in the medical

PAUL UK REPLIES
American scientific did a good article re cancer and the innate immune
system, based on theory that lingering inflamation can encourage tumor growth,
cytokines etc were obviously implicated here, the article is worth reading.I
think it was august edition.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                         

       
---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Bill and Andrew,

Thanks for your info on Vit D. I am glad this is helping you. I seem also to be helped by vit D, but not my upgraded immune system, which still is busy finding whatever it can to attack.

I asked the question about cytokine production because I have seen personally a disturbing trend. Upon cleaning up glutens in my diet, which my immune system had attacked all my life, I had problems with other food intolerances. Cleaned these up, and I then had problems with gut flora imbalance; cleaned this up, and then had problems with environmental mold. Cleaned up the mold problem and my immune system found pesticides for me to react to; the reaction to the pesticides then either initiated the renewed reaction to ES (I had had some reaction to ES prior to the gluten removal 8 years ago,) or the ES was just another thing my immune system decided to attack on its own. I began looking at this from the angle of detoxing seeming to invite another intolerance. I am better for months in between each removal and then my body finds something new to be sensitive to. Perhaps this has nothing to do with ES at all, but I was asking in case others here had similar problems
or had odd immune problems involving cytokines. Perhaps this is more of an MCS or EI inquiry and I should take it to a forum for that.

Thanks again for your response, tho,
Diane

Andrew McAfee <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am taking Vit. D liquid also. Don't know if it is helping but my
tests said I was low.
Andrew
On Sep 21, 2007, at 11:16 PM, Bill Bruno wrote:






---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Sandi,

I do take alot of supplements. Not all help me and I have found, in particular, that particular brands do not help me. But certainly it does not help to take the wrong vitamins, and not everyone needs the same nutrition. That said, I have seen amazing results from some things. In particular, I could not live without pantethine and calcium AEP. I could not function without these for use when my autonomic nervous system goes haywire, which happens any time I over extend myself physically or am overly stressed. Among other things, I need molybdenum, which is a very odd nutritional deficiency. That is because I am gluten-free and do not eat anything which is high in molybdenum.

But, you are quite right--growing your own food and buying from a farmer's market is most necessary in this day and age. The veggies and fruits one gets from a grocer today is probably not worth the time eating them. Most likely these are depleted of nutrients before we get them home.

Take care,
Diane

Sandi Maurer <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have an aversion to taking vitamins and the kind I have taken are food
based. A whole pill makes me nausea, although I can tolerate a half
pill. I have never seen benefit though from taking vitamins. Has
anyone? I prefer to use herbs in the form of tea and have also made my
own herbal vinegar's. I like to think eating a wholesome and varied diet
is enough, although I don't know. The vitamin industry is a huge profit
industry and so I am wary of whether or not vitamins are necessary. I
have studied about nutrition and diet since my twenties and learned
many theories contradict each other. I found I have to find my own way
with how food works for me. Things that I have been told are good for
me, like bee pollen I react to. Green algae feels like a non food.
Shopping at the farmers market is a favorite thing to do as is growing
my own food. I do take the supplement zeolite which is ridiculously
expensive and yet it seems to work for me. I trust my intuitive sense
about that even though I cannot say for sure its helpful. I just like
it. Sandi

> Are lots of people here overly sensitive to supplements?






---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's probably all linked. Cytokine shift is one of the key points
emphasised by Breakspear Hospital in their work on MCS, ME, and ES.
Googling "cytokine shift breakspear" should bring this up.
Ian

_____  

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Evie
Sent: 22 September 2007 17:40
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [eSens] cytokine overproduction anyone?



Hi Bill and Andrew,

Thanks for your info on Vit D. I am glad this is helping you. I seem also to
be helped by vit D, but not my upgraded immune system, which still is busy
finding whatever it can to attack.

I asked the question about cytokine production because I have seen
personally a disturbing trend. Upon cleaning up glutens in my diet, which my
immune system had attacked all my life, I had problems with other food
intolerances. Cleaned these up, and I then had problems with gut flora
imbalance; cleaned this up, and then had problems with environmental mold.
Cleaned up the mold problem and my immune system found pesticides for me to
react to; the reaction to the pesticides then either initiated the renewed
reaction to ES (I had had some reaction to ES prior to the gluten removal 8
years ago,) or the ES was just another thing my immune system decided to
attack on its own. I began looking at this from the angle of detoxing
seeming to invite another intolerance. I am better for months in between
each removal and then my body finds something new to be sensitive to.
Perhaps this has nothing to do with ES at all, but I was asking in case
others here had similar problems
or had odd immune problems involving cytokines. Perhaps this is more of an
MCS or EI inquiry and I should take it to a forum for that.

Thanks again for your response, tho,
Diane

Andrew McAfee <amcafeerr@nc. <mailto:amcafeerr%40nc.rr.com> rr.com> wrote:
I am taking Vit. D liquid also. Don't know if it is helping but my
tests said I was low.
Andrew
On Sep 21, 2007, at 11:16 PM, Bill Bruno wrote:
wrote:
---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't know what "causes" ES. I do think that contributing factors
create an environment for the nerves to be fried (demyelination).
My latest theory is the heavy metals and toxins break down the body's
immune system and nerves to the point the ever present bacteria/virus
from vaccines and ? attack the body and break us down further to the
point that we are unable to properly function.
Yes, clearing the liver and other organs of mercury, etc. is essential
in order to free up the body's ability to fight the stealth viruses.
Where to start?!
Any door that is open.
andrew

On Sep 22, 2007, at 6:57 PM, Ian Kemp wrote:

I certainly think that demyelination due to immune system damage is a very
likely cause for people with severe head symptoms, e.g. "whole-head"
tinnitus. I think of it a bit like an electrical wire being stripped of its
insulation. Then, instead of the contacts just being made at the ends, it
is vulnerable to currents and short-circuits along its entire length. The
medical research on mercury crossing the blood-brain barrier (again if the
immune system breaks down) and potentially causing internal damage also
seems a likely factor. If only we could see inside our heads to see whether
this is really what is happening!
 
Ian

_____  

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Andrew McAfee
Sent: 23 September 2007 00:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [eSens] cytokine overproduction anyone?



I don't know what "causes" ES. I do think that contributing factors
create an environment for the nerves to be fried (demyelination).
My latest theory is the heavy metals and toxins break down the body's
immune system and nerves to the point the ever present bacteria/virus
from vaccines and ? attack the body and break us down further to the
point that we are unable to properly function.
Yes, clearing the liver and other organs of mercury, etc. is essential
in order to free up the body's ability to fight the stealth viruses.
Where to start?!
Any door that is open.
andrew

On Sep 22, 2007, at 6:57 PM, Ian Kemp wrote:

> It's probably all linked. Cytokine shift is one of the key points
> emphasised by Breakspear Hospital in their work on MCS, ME, and ES.
> Googling "cytokine shift breakspear" should bring this up.
> Ian
>
> _____
>
> From: eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto:eSens@yahoogroups. <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf


 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your reactions and what to do about it are explained in the book
"Recipe for Living without Disease" by Aajonus Vonderplanitz, the raw
paleolithic diet also works. There are various yahoo groups that
discuss this sort of approach to healing, such as rawpaleodiet and
live-food.
If you like reading, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston
A. Price is most helpful. http://www.westonaprice.org/

Cytokine is one of many things poorly understood by science, and
paying attention to this kind of thing is like not being able to see
the forest for the trees.

William



--- In [hidden email], Evie <evie15422@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill and Andrew,
>    
> Thanks for your info on Vit D. I am glad this is helping you. I
seem also to be helped by vit D, but not my upgraded immune system,
which still is busy finding whatever it can to attack.  
>    
> I asked the question about cytokine production because I have
seen personally a disturbing trend. Upon cleaning up glutens in my
diet, which my immune system had attacked all my life, I had problems
with other food intolerances. Cleaned these up, and I then had
problems with gut flora imbalance; cleaned this up, and then had
problems with environmental mold. Cleaned up the mold problem and my
immune system found pesticides for me to react to; the reaction to
the pesticides then either initiated the renewed reaction to ES (I
had had some reaction to ES prior to the gluten removal 8 years ago,)
or the ES was just another thing my immune system decided to attack
on its own. I began looking at this from the angle of detoxing
seeming to invite another intolerance. I am better for months in
between each removal and then my body finds something new to be
sensitive to. Perhaps this has nothing to do with ES at all, but I
was asking in case others here had similar problems
> or had odd immune problems involving cytokines. Perhaps this is
more of an MCS or EI inquiry and I should take it to a forum for
that.  
>    
> Thanks again for your response, tho,
> Diane
>
> Andrew McAfee <amcafeerr@...> wrote:
> I am taking Vit. D liquid also. Don't know if it is
helping but my
> tests said I was low.
> Andrew
> On Sep 21, 2007, at 11:16 PM, Bill Bruno wrote:
>
> > I don't like most multivitamins and B vitamins. The theory behind
D
> > vitamins
> > (I take rather low dose in liquid form) is that it stimulates
part of
> > the
> > innate immune
> > system. Hopefully this kills off some of the blood dwelling
bacteria,
> > and
> > when they
> > are gone the rest of the immune system can rest. Cytokines should
> > then go
> > down.
> > Treating any infections and reducing allergens (dairy foods,
wheat)
> > might
> > help too.
> >
> > For calcium I like the capsules; I break them open and sprinkle
on my
> > breakfast...
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > On 9/21/07, Evie <evie15422@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi, All,
> >>
> >> On the note of lymphatic overload, has anyone here ever had
testing
> >> for
> >> cytokine production? I am just embarking on research into this
area,
> >> so
> >> can't share any real info yet. It appears that celiacs and
others who
> >> have
> >> many environmental sensitivities may have a communication
problem in
> >> their
> >> immune systems where the body does not know when to shut off
cytokine
> >> production. (If I have understood it correctly--I don't speak
medical
> >> research doctor latin very well and need a medical dictionary to
look
> >> up
> >> every other word in the medical abstracts, at this point. lol )
> >>
> >> At any rate, in my first search regarding this, I have found Dr
> >> Cheney of
> >> CFS fame is treating cytokine OVER production with immersion
baths
> >> (standing
> >> in 80 degree F or so water up to the neck, so that the lymphatic
> >> system
> >> pushes cytokines and wastes back into the body--the reverse of
> >> detox). The
> >> reasoning here is, the body doesn't quit producing cytokines
when
> >> they are
> >> in the lymphatic system. The body needs to realize that there
are
> >> already
> >> more than enough cytokines and stop production, and to make it
> >> realize that,
> >> he is causing a loop wherein the lymphatic fluid with its
cytokines
> >> comes
> >> back into the blood stream.
> >>
> >> It occurred to me that cytokines chasing relatively harmless
> >> substances
> >> can in itself cause lymphatic overload; not just due to the
presence
> >> of
> >> glutens, mold, or pesticides...., but due also to the amount of
immune
> >> system cells in the system. It is an unending circle--the
upgraded
> >> immune
> >> system, upon losing glutens, then finds gut bugs to chase; then
> >> chemicals or
> >> molds to chase when the gut bugs are killed.... For a person
whose
> >> immune
> >> system is over-active, it never ends. There is always SOMETHING
out
> >> there
> >> that is foreign which the body can find as "not self" to attack.
> >> So....
> >> might an immune system which does not communicate re how many
> >> cytokines are
> >> in production be a contributor to ES? Just asking in case others
out
> >> there
> >> have already had tests for this or done research into this area.
If
> >> this is
> >> the case, then detoxing an overloaded lymphatic system might
possibly
> >> add to
> >> the risk to get ES! THis is just a thought I have and should not
be work
> >>> up to
> >>> check your tolerance.
> >>
> >> Are lots of people here overly sensitive to supplements? I know
that

--- In [hidden email], Andrew McAfee <amcafeerr@...> wrote:

> Where to start?!
> Any door that is open.

Detoxify and rebuild is the only way I know that is proven.
http://www.paleodiet.com/

--- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@...> wrote:
>

> Most of this stuff is expensive and not available in local stores,
but
> it is definitely helpful.
>

Everything we need and might get from the right supplement is already
in pure raw organic food.

If you can get it.

William

My first reaction to this article is this: These healthy tribes most
likely do not live with electricity. I have heard that within two years
of installing electricity to an area cancer shows up. I do think diet
is so important, but not to neglect e pollution effects. Take away
electricity from the US and how would public health change? Maybe people
would not crave junk food? If epollution exerts stress on the body and
stores the toxins in fat one way to cope is to overeat. That said I am
glad for the link as I have been interested in this diet! Sandi

> --- In [hidden email] <mailto:eSens%40yahoogroups.com>, Andrew
> McAfee <amcafeerr@.
> ..> wrote:
>
> > Where to start?!
> > Any door that is open.
>
> Detoxify and rebuild is the only way I know that is proven.
> http://www.paleodiet.com/ <http://www.paleodiet.com/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Andrew and Ian,
   
Thanks for your input and info. (Will be googling Breakspear soon, Ian. Thanks!) I have demyelinization due to gluten, too, so it IS likely the ES is linked to that, but I am trying to see the forest for the trees, here.Like you said, Andrew, where to start??? I have become pretty concerned with the coming down with new things to be intolerant of, tho, and am trying to sort out whether ES is part of that scenario or not (since I have had various other types of events and reactions to EMFs, tho, it is likely thisproblem has been around in the background for a long time and not a completely new event).  
   
Lest anyone misunderstand me--I was not suggesting that we (or even just I) should abandon detoxing. I am trying to figure out whether a therapy geared to stopping cytokine production would work in conjunction with detox--one day detox, next day do immersion bath... Or whether cytokines has anything to do with it at all.
   
Thanks, again,
Diane

Andrew McAfee <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't know what "causes" ES. I do think that contributing factors
create an environment for the nerves to be fried (demyelination).
My latest theory is the heavy metals and toxins break down the body's
immune system and nerves to the point the ever present bacteria/virus
from vaccines and ? attack the body and break us down further to the
point that we are unable to properly function.
Yes, clearing the liver and other organs of mercury, etc. is essential
in order to free up the body's ability to fight the stealth viruses.
Where to start?!
Any door that is open.
andrew

On Sep 22, 2007, at 6:57 PM, Ian Kemp wrote:



         

       
---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi William,
   
I am ALMOST totally on the paleo diet now and have been for the past 4 years. However, I don't care how you slice it, I do not believe that a person can truly reproduce the diet from 1000 or even 100 years ago. I do not eat manufactured foods, except for an occasional cheat on the holidays, but even foods you grow yourself are not truly organic (the atmosphere isn't clean/do you know where your dirt has been?!) But as for killing wild animals, as a friend of mine does (and I partake in some of that myself--wild turkey, deer, and pheasant--when it comes my way via hunting friends), I thinkit is a tad naive to think that the birds and deer graze only on organic wildlands and do not wonder into toxic waste dumps next door to munch once in awhile. Lets face it; ancient diet isn't 100% achievable in this day andage! Because my friend is on the paleo diet, I know quite abit about it. My diet is nearly the same, save that I eat organic farmed meats, and no organs (which
accummulate environmental toxins), please; and don't carry a club with me when walking thru the forrest with which to kill the little critters with! <s>
   
That said, I will look into the books you suggested (the first one, in particular). Thank you for the suggestion. Actually, it is the recent research that the medical profession has been doing to understand cytokine activity that launched this thread. So I think maybe they are getting up to speed there, William. (But you are so right about the forest and the trees.)
   
Thanks,
Diane

skrzn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Your reactions and what to do about it are explained in the book
"Recipe for Living without Disease" by Aajonus Vonderplanitz, the raw
paleolithic diet also works. There are various yahoo groups that
discuss this sort of approach to healing, such as rawpaleodiet and
live-food.
If you like reading, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston
A. Price is most helpful. http://www.westonaprice.org/

Cytokine is one of many things poorly understood by science, and
paying attention to this kind of thing is like not being able to see
the forest for the trees.

William

--- In [hidden email], Evie <evie15422@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill and Andrew,
>
> Thanks for your info on Vit D. I am glad this is helping you. I
seem also to be helped by vit D, but not my upgraded immune system,
which still is busy finding whatever it can to attack.
>
> I asked the question about cytokine production because I have
seen personally a disturbing trend. Upon cleaning up glutens in my
diet, which my immune system had attacked all my life, I had problems
with other food intolerances. Cleaned these up, and I then had
problems with gut flora imbalance; cleaned this up, and then had
problems with environmental mold. Cleaned up the mold problem and my
immune system found pesticides for me to react to; the reaction to
the pesticides then either initiated the renewed reaction to ES (I
had had some reaction to ES prior to the gluten removal 8 years ago,)
or the ES was just another thing my immune system decided to attack
on its own. I began looking at this from the angle of detoxing
seeming to invite another intolerance. I am better for months in
between each removal and then my body finds something new to be
sensitive to. Perhaps this has nothing to do with ES at all, but I
was asking in case others here had similar problems
> or had odd immune problems involving cytokines. Perhaps this is
more of an MCS or EI inquiry and I should take it to a forum for
that.
>
> Thanks again for your response, tho,
> Diane
>
> Andrew McAfee <amcafeerr@...> wrote:
> I am taking Vit. D liquid also. Don't know if it is
helping but my
> tests said I was low.
> Andrew
> On Sep 21, 2007, at 11:16 PM, Bill Bruno wrote:
>
> > I don't like most multivitamins and B vitamins. The theory behind
D
> > vitamins
> > (I take rather low dose in liquid form) is that it stimulates
part of
> > the
> > innate immune
> > system. Hopefully this kills off some of the blood dwelling
bacteria,
> > and
> > when they
> > are gone the rest of the immune system can rest. Cytokines should
> > then go
> > down.
> > Treating any infections and reducing allergens (dairy foods,
wheat)
> > might
> > help too.
> >
> > For calcium I like the capsules; I break them open and sprinkle
on my
> > breakfast...
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > On 9/21/07, Evie <evie15422@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi, All,
> >>
> >> On the note of lymphatic overload, has anyone here ever had
testing
> >> for
> >> cytokine production? I am just embarking on research into this
area,
> >> so
> >> can't share any real info yet. It appears that celiacs and
others who
> >> have
> >> many environmental sensitivities may have a communication
problem in
> >> their
> >> immune systems where the body does not know when to shut off
cytokine
> >> production. (If I have understood it correctly--I don't speak
medical
> >> research doctor latin very well and need a medical dictionary to
look
> >> up
> >> every other word in the medical abstracts, at this point. lol )
> >>
> >> At any rate, in my first search regarding this, I have found Dr
> >> Cheney of
> >> CFS fame is treating cytokine OVER production with immersion
baths
> >> (standing
> >> in 80 degree F or so water up to the neck, so that the lymphatic
> >> system
> >> pushes cytokines and wastes back into the body--the reverse of
> >> detox). The
> >> reasoning here is, the body doesn't quit producing cytokines
when
> >> they are
> >> in the lymphatic system. The body needs to realize that there
are
> >> already
> >> more than enough cytokines and stop production, and to make it
> >> realize that,
> >> he is causing a loop wherein the lymphatic fluid with its
cytokines
> >> comes
> >> back into the blood stream.
> >>
> >> It occurred to me that cytokines chasing relatively harmless
> >> substances
> >> can in itself cause lymphatic overload; not just due to the
presence
> >> of
> >> glutens, mold, or pesticides...., but due also to the amount of
immune
> >> system cells in the system. It is an unending circle--the
upgraded
> >> immune
> >> system, upon losing glutens, then finds gut bugs to chase; then
> >> chemicals or
> >> molds to chase when the gut bugs are killed.... For a person
whose
> >> immune
> >> system is over-active, it never ends. There is always SOMETHING
out
> >> there
> >> that is foreign which the body can find as "not self" to attack.
> >> So....
> >> might an immune system which does not communicate re how many
> >> cytokines are
> >> in production be a contributor to ES? Just asking in case others
out
> >> there
> >> have already had tests for this or done research into this area.
If
> >> this is
> >> the case, then detoxing an overloaded lymphatic system might
possibly
> >> add to
> >> the risk to get ES! THis is just a thought I have and should not
be work
> >>> up to
> >>> check your tolerance.
> >>
> >> Are lots of people here overly sensitive to supplements? I know
that


                         

       
---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Diane;

I agree with what you write below, but add that I am betting that
detox will rid the body of toxins faster than they come in on a
strict paleo diet, and so reduce the stored burden of a lifetime of
eating anything put in front of me..
The very few times I've been able to get enough edible fat (bone
marrow) there has been an encouraging detox reaction, in spite of the
supermarket source.

I also agree with the idea that *any* radiated electricity does
something bad to us.

William



--- In [hidden email], Evie <evie15422@...> wrote:
>
> Hi William,
>    
> I am ALMOST totally on the paleo diet now and have been for the
past 4 years. However, I don't care how you slice it, I do not
believe that a person can truly reproduce the diet from 1000 or even
100 years ago. I do not eat manufactured foods, except for an
occasional cheat on the holidays, but even foods you grow yourself
are not truly organic (the atmosphere isn't clean/do you know where
your dirt has been?!) But as for killing wild animals, as a friend
of mine does (and I partake in some of that myself--wild turkey,
deer, and pheasant--when it comes my way via hunting friends), I
think it is a tad naive to think that the birds and deer graze only
on organic wildlands and do not wonder into toxic waste dumps next
door to munch once in awhile. Lets face it; ancient diet isn't 100%
achievable in this day and age! Because my friend is on the paleo
diet, I know quite abit about it. My diet is nearly the same, save
that I eat organic farmed meats, and no organs (which
> accummulate environmental toxins), please; and don't carry a club
with me when walking thru the forrest with which to kill the little
critters with! <s>
>    
> That said, I will look into the books you suggested (the first
one, in particular). Thank you for the suggestion. Actually, it is
the recent research that the medical profession has been doing to
understand cytokine activity that launched this thread. So I think
maybe they are getting up to speed there, William. (But you are so
right about the forest and the trees.)
>    
> Thanks,
> Diane
>
> skrzn <WilliamSchnell@...> wrote:
> Your reactions and what to do about it are explained in
the book
> "Recipe for Living without Disease" by Aajonus Vonderplanitz, the
raw
> paleolithic diet also works. There are various yahoo groups that
> discuss this sort of approach to healing, such as rawpaleodiet and
> live-food.
> If you like reading, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by
Weston
> A. Price is most helpful. http://www.westonaprice.org/
>
> Cytokine is one of many things poorly understood by science, and
> paying attention to this kind of thing is like not being able to
see problems
> with other food intolerances. Cleaned these up, and I then had
> problems with gut flora imbalance; cleaned this up, and then had
> problems with environmental mold. Cleaned up the mold problem and
my
> immune system found pesticides for me to react to; the reaction to
> the pesticides then either initiated the renewed reaction to ES (I
> had had some reaction to ES prior to the gluten removal 8 years
ago,) behind should to
> look
> > >> up
> > >> every other word in the medical abstracts, at this point. lol )
> > >>
> > >> At any rate, in my first search regarding this, I have found
Dr
> > >> Cheney of
> > >> CFS fame is treating cytokine OVER production with immersion
> baths
> > >> (standing
> > >> in 80 degree F or so water up to the neck, so that the
lymphatic of
> immune
> > >> system cells in the system. It is an unending circle--the
> upgraded
> > >> immune
> > >> system, upon losing glutens, then finds gut bugs to chase;
then
> > >> chemicals or
> > >> molds to chase when the gut bugs are killed.... For a person
> whose
> > >> immune
> > >> system is over-active, it never ends. There is always
SOMETHING
> out
> > >> there
> > >> that is foreign which the body can find as "not self" to
attack.
> > >> So....
> > >> might an immune system which does not communicate re how many
> > >> cytokines are
> > >> in production be a contributor to ES? Just asking in case
others
> out
> > >> there
> > >> have already had tests for this or done research into this
area.
> If
> > >> this is
> > >> the case, then detoxing an overloaded lymphatic system might
> possibly
> > >> add to
> > >> the risk to get ES! THis is just a thought I have and should
not and
> > >>> mineral
> > >>> supplements, so i would suggest going easy on the dosages and
> work
> > >>> up to
> > >>> check your tolerance.
> > >>
> > >> Are lots of people here overly sensitive to supplements? I
know
> that
> > >> I am, and there are several supplements that I have tried that
I
> > >> simply cannot take even in small amounts due to the bad
reactions your Yahoo! Games.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi, William,

I do agree with you that on the paleo diet (and my diet, too, which is almost nearly the same), you take in much fewer toxins and the diet itself (using alot of veggies and berries) is, itself, detoxing. That is why I am eating the way I am. But still it seems there is more to detox, no matter what I do. And the diet has not made me less reactive to things. Something else is going on there that I have not yet put my finger on. That said, I am not poo-pooing an organic, all natural, unprocessed, glutenfree/sugarfree diet. I went from bed-bound to normal energy in less than 6 years, and only 2 of those years were on the diet, really. The first 4 years I was gf but that was all. On just gf, I was only able to function about 2 light hours a day. So, while I don't see the diet (mine or the paleo diet) as able to cure everything, I do see it as able to cure a whole lot. :)

Take care,
Diane








---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Marc and Evie,
I am extremely, but extremely, sensitive to supplements and drugs.
All kinds of idiosyncratic, unheard of reactions. I always start with the
smallest possible dose of anything. Evie, I don't just think it's
lymphatic though that't an intriguing idea. I have had symptoms like
neurally mediated hypotension for months on end from a supplement (blood
pressure plummets when you are upright), all kinds of weird things. I have
some brain damage (I believe and a functional eeg supports) from a viral
infection and then a pesticide poisoning. Taliesen


On 9/21/07, Evie <[hidden email]> wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, Taliesen,

When I said that lymphatic overload caused sensitivity to supplements because it detoxes, I did not mean to imply that is the sole thing which causes sensitivity to supplements. (And I can see how you might extrapolate that from what I wrote, but that was not what I exactly meant.) I meant that those here with ES are very likely candidates for lymphatic overload. Lymphatic overload will make one react to supplementation. There are plenty of other reasons, including allergy, for why people react to supplements.

That said, lymphatic overload IS tied to orthostatic hypotension. I have plummeting bp due to lymphatic overload which creates a deficiency in adrenal nutrients. The adrenals then fail, affecting the autonomic nervous system, producing plummeting bp. This can be quickly aided by taking the nutrients in question.

I am not saying this is YOUR problem, tho. I also have alot of symptomology I have not written about due to drug interaction and supplementation. I USED to be very supplement reactive, now I know that I always have to start small and work up to full doses of supplements over time. I am still very drug reactive. A baby's dose of benedryl will put me out for days and I will remain a zombie for a week or more, for instance. I, too, have alot of brain damage and have a hand tremor as a result (according to a specialist for this), among other things. Btw, my brain damage is thought to have been caused by a genetic sensitivity to glutens. I suspect pesticide exposures were also involved, but this has not been proven. There is alot of new research on the gluten sensitivity end lately regarding brain and CNS injury due to glutens. I can send privately if you are interested. Not saying this is your problem, either. ;) But I am always of the mind that shared info is a
good thing. (Likewise, I would be glad to receive any info you have found to work for you or that you suspect to be connected, since it appears we have alot in common.)

Take care,
Diane aka Evie



Taliesen Waters <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Marc and Evie,
I am extremely, but extremely, sensitive to supplements and drugs.
All kinds of idiosyncratic, unheard of reactions. I always start with the
smallest possible dose of anything. Evie, I don't just think it's
lymphatic though that't an intriguing idea. I have had symptoms like
neurally mediated hypotension for months on end from a supplement (blood
pressure plummets when you are upright), all kinds of weird things. I have
some brain damage (I believe and a functional eeg supports) from a viral
infection and then a pesticide poisoning. Taliesen

On 9/21/07, Evie <[hidden email]> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]