A Lap Top question

Hello All,
 
So I'm electrically sensitive, can't hold a nook or a kindle. My computer  
is dying and I'd so love to get a lap top instead of a desk top.  Can any  
of you use lap tops?  Will I ever be able to use a lap top?  
 
I'd like to hear of some of your experiences.  Is one better than  another
or are they all taboo because of Wi Fi?  And do they smell of  chemicals
when you are charging it up?  I'm MCS also.
 
When my old computer, 5 years old, was new I had to put it into a computer  
box to be able to use it.
 
Lots of questions I know but is there any hope of a lap top for me?
 
 
Thank you.
 
Estelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you can't use the low end e-ink screened kindle (not the one with a normal lcd type screen), you won't have much luck with a laptop. Yes, laptops outgass chemicals, plenty of them. What model of kindle did you try?

--- In [hidden email], e4health@... wrote:

> If you can't use the low end e-ink screened kindle (not the
> one with a normal lcd type screen), you won't have much luck
> with a laptop. Yes, laptops outgass chemicals, plenty of them.
> What model of kindle did you try?

Not true - I can't tolerate a Kindle 3 (with e-ink screen), but
have a little Lenovo netbook (LCD with LED backlight) that is
far more tolerable.

Although a desktop is preferable to both.  :-)

Marc

> Not true - I can't tolerate a Kindle 3 (with e-ink screen), but
> have a little Lenovo netbook (LCD with LED backlight) that is
> far more tolerable.

And if someone is looking for model numbers... the little
Lenovo netbook that I find to be much more tolerable than
a Kindle 3 is a Lenovo IdeaPad s10-2.

But I hardly did any trade study here -- even my wife's
laptop, an IBM Thinkpad X40, is more tolerable to me
than the IdeaPad.  But this is a larger, older, and slower
laptop.  Which may not matter, depending on what one is
using it for.

Buying something old, used, and cheap on eBay might be
a good way to go with laptops...

Marc

Hi Estelle,


I found this thread on the subject... http://greenlivingqa.com/content/laptop-worries.  Seems there's no easy answer. Your best bet is a desktop with an all metal case and external monitor, and keep both as far away from you as physically possible. You might be able to find one or have one built at a local PC outfit. Most of the major manufacturers use a lot of plastic now. I like Lian-Li cases, all aluminum. A metal case should do a better job at protecting you from EMR inside the case as well...


If you really want a laptop, consider an all metal Mac, as there are less plastics which outgas.  Some ES folks have reported problems with Mac laptops as well... If you get a laptop, you'll probably want to disable all wireless devices, and usually there's a physical switch on the laptop to do this. 

I've found sustained spikes of up to 1.5V 3 feet away from my HP laptop with Wifi connected. Because you have to sit up close to laptops to see the screen, they are inherently going to give you higher EMR exposures. Consider getting an external monitor, keyboard and mouse with a laptop, so you can get further away from the radiation. If the laptop has HDMI or a Display port, you can port to any HDTV with HDMI, although you may need an adapter for the Display port. When my laptop bites the dust, I'm going back to a good ol' desktop, maybe sooner! 


Tim



________________________________
 From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:31 PM
Subject: [eSens] A Lap Top question
 

 
Hello All,

So I'm electrically sensitive, can't hold a nook or a kindle. My computer
is dying and I'd so love to get a lap top instead of a desk top.  Can any
of you use lap tops?  Will I ever be able to use a lap top?

I'd like to hear of some of your experiences.  Is one better than  another
or are they all taboo because of Wi Fi?  And do they smell of  chemicals
when you are charging it up?  I'm MCS also.

When my old computer, 5 years old, was new I had to put it into a computer
box to be able to use it.

Lots of questions I know but is there any hope of a lap top for me?


Thank you.

Estelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hmmm, someone in the thread mentions a fan-less computer called the FitPC 2... Here's the latest model, the FitPC3, and it's a very clever design!  Anyone have any experience with these models?  All peripherals would have to be external, so that ups the EMR, but behind a case or shielding, this might be a good option...


http://fit-pc.co.uk/Fit_PC_3/System_Connectivity.html

Tim



________________________________
 From: Tim <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [eSens] A Lap Top question
 

 
Hi Estelle,

I found this thread on the subject... http://greenlivingqa.com/content/laptop-worries.  Seems there's no easy answer. Your best bet is a desktop with an all metal case and external monitor, and keep both as far away from you as physically possible. You might be able to find one or have one built at a local PC outfit. Most of the major manufacturers use a lot of plastic now. I like Lian-Li cases, all aluminum. A metal case should do a better job at protecting you from EMR inside the case as well...

If you really want a laptop, consider an all metal Mac, as there are less plastics which outgas.  Some ES folks have reported problems with Mac laptops as well... If you get a laptop, you'll probably want to disable all wireless devices, and usually there's a physical switch on the laptop to do this. 

I've found sustained spikes of up to 1.5V 3 feet away from my HP laptop with Wifi connected. Because you have to sit up close to laptops to see the screen, they are inherently going to give you higher EMR exposures. Consider getting an external monitor, keyboard and mouse with a laptop, so you can get further away from the radiation. If the laptop has HDMI or a Display port, you can port to any HDTV with HDMI, although you may need an adapter for the Display port. When my laptop bites the dust, I'm going back to a good ol' desktop, maybe sooner! 

Tim

________________________________
From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:31 PM
Subject: [eSens] A Lap Top question


 
Hello All,

So I'm electrically sensitive, can't hold a nook or a kindle. My computer
is dying and I'd so love to get a lap top instead of a desk top.  Can any
of you use lap tops?  Will I ever be able to use a lap top?

I'd like to hear of some of your experiences.  Is one better than  another
or are they all taboo because of Wi Fi?  And do they smell of  chemicals
when you are charging it up?  I'm MCS also.

When my old computer, 5 years old, was new I had to put it into a computer
box to be able to use it.

Lots of questions I know but is there any hope of a lap top for me?

Thank you.

Estelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I tried the kindle so long ago I don't remember the  model.  The nook I
tried was a pretty new one.
 
Estelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Marc.  I just make have to download the nook or  kindle ap and read
from my PC. I just wanted to be able to take a lap top out of  the house at
times.  
 
 
Estelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 
In a message dated 2/11/2012 7:17:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

Buying  something old, used, and cheap on eBay might be
a good way to go with  laptops...




This probably true but I wonder if I should even  try.
 
Estelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim,
 
Thank you so much for this information.  I guess I have  to give up on the
idea that I can overcome the problems that are inherent with  lap tops and
stick with a PC which I have now that is in a steel case, vented  outdoors
with a fan and an optical glass cover.  It's funny, I'm not so  affected, or
it seems that way, by the electrical part as I am with the fumes  that come
out of it. I guess it's a little of both.  I didn't know that  anyone makes
these anymore. Do you have a resource for these enclosures?   The man that
made mine sixteen years ago has died and I have tried to search the  net for
people who make these and haven't been successful.  I'd appreciate  any
resource you can  provide.
 
And thanks again for making me see that I can't beat the  problem I have, I
need to learn to work with it.
 
Estelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Estelle,


I've just begun to test EMR from computers and such... I have no experience with PC enclosures that vent outside, but that's something I'll look into. It sounds like a good option for those with MCS. Do you have a photo you can send me of your PC setup, so I can see?  A picture is worth a thousand words you know. He, he, he... You might be able to upload the file to the Yahoo group, or send it directly through email... Is the enclosure you have now damaged or not working anymore? 


I'm not one who's keen to give up the fight easily, but I think you hit the nail on the head... There may be some things that cause us the most trouble, and computers (laptops in particular) generate a lot of EMR and chemicals. I love them (computers that is), but I'm realizing my work around all this technology is probably what's lead me down the path to ES... We can work with technology though, and there appear to be some good compromises out there... If MCS is more the issue, then it might be best to enclose and vent to the outside as you've been doing.  I always try to purchase the best processor and most RAM that's affordable at the time, so the system doesn't fall behind in technology too quickly.  The newer Intel i series are wonderful chips, lower heat and very fast. No I don't work for Intel!  :-)  A workstation class desktop should hold up better than the standard consumer desktop. HP makes some good workstations. I've seen very few fail at
 work. You can get a base Z210 for around $700, upgraded processor, RAM and hard drive for around 1K.  No I don't work for HP!  :-)  If you already have the monitor (hopefully DVI capable) and other peripherals, then all you really need is the workstation... 

That's my two cents...


Tim





________________________________
 From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [eSens] A Lap Top question
 

 
Tim,

Thank you so much for this information.  I guess I have  to give up on the
idea that I can overcome the problems that are inherent with  lap tops and
stick with a PC which I have now that is in a steel case, vented  outdoors
with a fan and an optical glass cover.  It's funny, I'm not so  affected, or
it seems that way, by the electrical part as I am with the fumes  that come
out of it. I guess it's a little of both.  I didn't know that  anyone makes
these anymore. Do you have a resource for these enclosures?   The man that
made mine sixteen years ago has died and I have tried to search the  net for
people who make these and haven't been successful.  I'd appreciate  any
resource you can  provide.

And thanks again for making me see that I can't beat the  problem I have, I
need to learn to work with it.

Estelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> There may be some things that cause us the most trouble, and computers
> (laptops in particular) generate a lot of EMR and chemicals.

I think there is a huge variation between manufacturers and models with
both chemicals and EMF.

> I always try to purchase the best processor...
> hopefully DVI capable)

The latest technology is not always the most tolerable to a person with
ES (and probably just the opposite).  For example, I still find a VGA
connection more tolerable than DVI, and a wired, non-optical mice to be
more tolerable than whatever mice they sell these days...

Marc

Hey Marc,


Thanks for your insight... Have you seen any comparisons of makes and models in terms of EMF and chemical exposure?  I'd love to see that...  I know that Stewart Andreasonhere has done some studies of processors and EMR... Good guy Stewart! 

I mentioned DVI monitor compatibility because a new workstation is likely to have DVI connections, although Estelle can easily get a cable to remedy that if she prefers or only has VGA.  I haven't tested VGA, DVI, or HDMI ports yet, but I would imagine that analog has less effect than digital signals. I'm thinking that a monitor may not be as much a factor since cables and LCD will be further away, but have you found digital ports to be problematic even at a distance?  

Keep that roller ball in your mouse clean, and it should serve you a long time!  :-) 


Tim



________________________________
 From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [eSens] A Lap Top question
 

 
> There may be some things that cause us the most trouble, and computers
> (laptops in particular) generate a lot of EMR and chemicals.

I think there is a huge variation between manufacturers and models with
both chemicals and EMF.

> I always try to purchase the best processor...
> hopefully DVI capable)

The latest technology is not always the most tolerable to a person with
ES (and probably just the opposite).  For example, I still find a VGA
connection more tolerable than DVI, and a wired, non-optical mice to be
more tolerable than whatever mice they sell these days...

Marc

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Have you seen any comparisons of makes and models in terms
> of EMF and chemical exposure? 

Not that I can recall... anyone?  I tend to think my reactions
are to things that won't necessarily be measured, so I only
go by my reaction to specific items.

I know that when I was searching for my last computer, Lenovo
had some "green" models that claimed to have eliminated a lot
of the nasty stuff.  For example:

  http://www.metaefficient.com/computers/lenovos-latest-green-pc-thinkcentre-m58p.html

(Never tried that specific model, though)

> I'm thinking that a monitor may not be as much a factor since cables
> and LCD will be further away, but have you found digital ports to be
> problematic even at a distance?  

I haven't noticed that the ports themselves are a problem.  It almost
seems like some of my reaction is to the video card, and the signal
it sends to the monitor (as opposed to the monitor itself).  So a
high quality video card would make for a better experience than a
low quality video card, or running the card at a lesser resolution
helps as well.  Also turning down the backlight on an LCD monitor
has consistently made things more tolerable for me as well.
 
> Keep that roller ball in your mouse clean, and it should serve you
> a long time!  :-) 

Plus the fact that I have a dozen brand new ones in the garage... :-)

Marc

Smart man, stock up!  Thanks for the article Marc... That model looks interesting, and I didn't know about the standards regarding internal chemicals and Greenpeace ratings, excellent!  

Here are the latest Greenpeace ratings, and HP is at the top currently. Not that I work for HP or Greenpeace!  :-)  I'm not a big fan of Consumer level HP products, but their Enterprise level hardware is very reliable, such as their workstations. If you click on the download report card link for each manufacturer, you can get detailed info on specific models. This is very helpful...


http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/climate-change/cool-it/Guide-to-Greener-Electronics/?id=

Tim



________________________________
 From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [eSens] A Lap Top question
 

 
> Have you seen any comparisons of makes and models in terms
> of EMF and chemical exposure? 

Not that I can recall... anyone?  I tend to think my reactions
are to things that won't necessarily be measured, so I only
go by my reaction to specific items.

I know that when I was searching for my last computer, Lenovo
had some "green" models that claimed to have eliminated a lot
of the nasty stuff.  For example:

http://www.metaefficient.com/computers/lenovos-latest-green-pc-thinkcentre-m58p.html

(Never tried that specific model, though)

> I'm thinking that a monitor may not be as much a factor since cables
> and LCD will be further away, but have you found digital ports to be
> problematic even at a distance?  

I haven't noticed that the ports themselves are a problem.  It almost
seems like some of my reaction is to the video card, and the signal
it sends to the monitor (as opposed to the monitor itself).  So a
high quality video card would make for a better experience than a
low quality video card, or running the card at a lesser resolution
helps as well.  Also turning down the backlight on an LCD monitor
has consistently made things more tolerable for me as well.

> Keep that roller ball in your mouse clean, and it should serve you
> a long time!  :-) 

Plus the fact that I have a dozen brand new ones in the garage... :-)

Marc

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Here are the latest Greenpeace ratings
> This is very helpful...

Yes, always good to have more information, as long
as they are rating what we care about...

...for example, a couple of years ago I needed to
paint a big space, and went to the trouble or purchasing
test pints of various low VOC/no VOC paints to try out.
Amazingly, I had a bad reaction to one of the paints
that advertised itself as "zero VOC".  Apparently,
zero VOC doesn't necessarily mean "not harmful".

The winner of my trade was the brand "Mythic", which
sells "non-toxic" paint that was very tolerable,
even while painting.  

Marc

Some folks recommend the Macbook pro because
it doesn't smell and has an aluminum case. But
I can tell you the 17" Macbook pro with
an Intel i7 processor is an EMF nightmare. My
brother bought one, and it's a horror. And Apple
has a restocking fee so we didn't return it.

I manage to use an HP L2005CU. When it's on Minimal
Power Management (Win XP) (running on battery) it's
OK for a short while. That's the only reason I can
be here now. On full power it burns me up.

When it comes to finding a tolerable laptop it's
a matter of trial and error.

Eli

--- In [hidden email], e4health@... wrote:

Tim and everyone, many thanks for all the information.   Tim I went on that
site you provided and after reading all the comments it seems  to me that
I'm best staying with a PC. Perhaps someday I'll try a Macbook since  some
said good things about it but for now, I'm stuck to my desk.  
 
Perhaps for travel, an iphone might be best .
 
 
Estelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You guys make good points... The Greenpeace ratings cover emissions and chemicals, but they are still industry standards, not EHS standards. It's encouraging to see the industry make strides towards safer products though. If those safer products sell, then it moves the industry in the right direction, eh? 


The trouble with making suggestions regarding technology is that it's so clear that people react to things so individually. What's good for one can be anightmare for another. So I look towards general recommendations, then dig from there... 

I'll have to test the Mac Book Pro we have at work... I thought with all the metal, it should protect better from EMR than one made from plastics. You know, it's the old wrap it in aluminum trick. All bets are off when wireless devices are enabled though regardless of the casing!  With Wifi on, I get skin burns now even several feet away...


Eli, are you testing with a meter or body reactions?  If meter, do you know at what V/m you begin to have symptoms? 


Tim



________________________________
 From: ahappyhabitat <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:02 AM
Subject: [eSens] Re: A Lap Top question
 

 


Some folks recommend the Macbook pro because
it doesn't smell and has an aluminum case. But
I can tell you the 17" Macbook pro with
an Intel i7 processor is an EMF nightmare. My
brother bought one, and it's a horror. And Apple
has a restocking fee so we didn't return it.

I manage to use an HP L2005CU. When it's on Minimal
Power Management (Win XP) (running on battery) it's
OK for a short while. That's the only reason I can
be here now. On full power it burns me up.

When it comes to finding a tolerable laptop it's
a matter of trial and error.

Eli

--- In [hidden email], e4health@... wrote:

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm talking about subjective symptoms. At five
feet away (where I sit from my laptop) you can't
even measure the E-field. Maybe some slight magnetic
field with an AM radio. With WiFi off, a gigahertz
solutions HF59B measures no RF. My Trifield (I know
it's a mediocre meter) pegs over 100 mg a few inches
above the keyboard. But so do all of the new laptops
with the Intel i3, i5, i7 processors. In my opinion
the aluminum case is too close to the source to be
effective, and seems to work against me.

Eli

--- In [hidden email], Tim <timheierman@...> wrote: