Solid metal keyboards; a good or silly choice for EMFs?

Hi people,

As I slowly put together what I hope will be a good computer system (I justordered a small fanless box system that can even run from a battery to replace this tower, and next I think will be a shielded monitor), I've thoughtof the keyboard and mouse.  I searched around a bit and found this:

http://www.directindustry.com/prod/eao/vandal-proof-stainless-steel-keyboard-9307-340885.html

I'm referring to the "Vandal proof stainless steel keyboard".

Even the keys are made of some kind of metallic alloy!

Now, what I wonder is, in your opinions, would the metal be a good option for keeping in the RF that keyboards usually emit (the lower frequency sort,in the kHz region that AM radio can pick up, and perhaps into the MHz region)? Or would the metal just further conduct that RF (if that's even possible; I'm not sure exactly how conductivity works with those frequencies)?

What about a metal keyboard's effect on magnetic and electric fields? I know that most keyboards are minimal in the magnetic field department.

Anyway, I just thought of this 'cause some of you have mentioned aluminum cased Macbooks or other laptops and it reminded me.

Curious to hear what you have to say!

R.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Now, what I wonder is, in your opinions, would the metal be a good option

Hmmm, well I have no idea, although I personally have no problems with my
ancient (1991) IBM Model M keyboard, which I believe is mostly metal.
And if it ever dies, I'll just buy another one just like it (just because
I like it as a keyboard, not necessarily because it is metal).

Marc

I have one similar to the model M, but without as much click sound.
They can be bought at clickykeyboards.com

It's not metal but the keys are pretty tall. I think my fingers
do react slightly despite putting some metal shielding inside.
I think the better step would be to run the computer off battery.

A metal keyboard could have benefits if properly grounded.
It's really the electronics that are more important though.
If they have a good return policy might be worth a try,
if you can ground it. It would be nice to have a slab of
metal between you and the electronics inside the keyboard.
I tried a modern keyboard that is made of a piece of aluminum except
the keys are plastic. It comes in aluminum or black. It
seemed decent but I decided to stick with the IBM.

With the old IBM you need a good USB adapter if you use a mac.

For a mouse, a big trackball is one way to go. Richard Conrad
can explain a better way if you are up to doing custom electronics.


On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Bill, and Marc,

Thanks both of you for your replies.  Have either of you checked your keyboards with an AM radio?

I am considering a steel keyboard with an integrated trackball; even the trackball is made of steel, and the keys are, too.  You can't see it in thepicture in the link I'll give, but the bottom of the keyboard has two little metal "boxes" into which the cables go, that can be unscrewed and opened, should one want to shield more around the cables.  One cable connects to the monitor, the other to the computer, but I was told it's not necessaryto connect to the monitor (doing so would only give more information from the keyboard, I guess for a public kiosk, or something).

The keyboard is this one:
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm-img/289865234-keyboard-with-trackball-kiosk-keyboard-metallic-keyboard-stainless-steel-keyboard-wholesalers.html

I think I might give it a go, because I had this keyboard (Logitech) open last night, and realized what an incredible hassle it is to put foil over the rubber membrane and cut holes for every one of the rubber membrane "nipples" that send the key hits to the circuit - and the keys are plastic, anyway, so it'd hardly be a full shield.

The one in the link sounds/looks solid, and if the trackball worked out, itmight even replace a mouse (but I'd sure miss using a scrollwheel!).

As far as grounding such a keyboard goes, what would be the best way to do that? Directly to the actual ground outside, just using a cable attached tothe keyboard?

And would there be an issue if such a metal keyboard were not grounded?

Thanks again!

R.

--- On Thu, 7/15/10, Bill Bruno <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Bill Bruno <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] Solid metal keyboards; a good or silly choice for EMFs?
To: [hidden email]
Received: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 5:01 AM

I have one similar to the model M, but without as much click sound.
They can be bought at clickykeyboards.com

It's not metal but the keys are pretty tall.  I think my fingers
do react slightly despite putting some metal shielding inside.
I think the better step would be to run the computer off battery.

A metal keyboard  could have benefits if properly grounded.
It's really the electronics that are more important though.
If they have a good return policy might be worth a try,
if you can ground it.  It would be nice to have a slab of
metal between you and the electronics inside the keyboard.
I tried a modern keyboard that is made of a piece of aluminum except
the keys are plastic.  It comes in aluminum or black.  It
seemed decent but I decided to stick with the IBM.

With the old IBM you need a good USB adapter if you use a mac.

For a mouse, a big trackball is one way to go.  Richard Conrad
can explain a better way if you are up to doing custom electronics.


On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Thanks both of you for your replies.  Have either of you checked your
> keyboards with an AM radio?

No, but that would be easy enough to do... I will say however that when
I bought a new computer last year, my keyboard seemed to be causing me
problems when it never did before with my previous computer. So it
seemed to me that I was reacting more to the signal coming from the
computer to the keyboard, not the keyboard itself. I eventually
returned the new computer and went back to my old one, and the
keyboard became perfectly tolerable again.

So I guess I'm saying that it's more complicated that just thinking
about the keyboard by itself.

Marc

Thanks, Marc.  If you do get the chance to check it with the radio, please do let me/us here know what you found.

I understand you about the computer itself.  I just ordered a small, fanless system, and I'm really hoping that it's a lot better than this desktop PC (it should be, since it'll be quiet - silent, in fact, and there'll be no moving parts (fans, nor HDD, since it'll be a solid state hard drive)...it's a low power Atom processor, too.

Cheers,

R.

--- On Fri, 7/16/10, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] Solid metal keyboards; a good or silly choice for EMFs?
To: [hidden email]
Received: Friday, July 16, 2010, 4:15 PM







 



 


   
     
     
> Thanks both of you for your replies.  Have either of you checked your

> keyboards with an AM radio?



No, but that would be easy enough to do... I will say however that when

I bought a new computer last year, my keyboard seemed to be causing me

problems when it never did before with my previous computer. So it

seemed to me that I was reacting more to the signal coming from the

computer to the keyboard, not the keyboard itself. I eventually

returned the new computer and went back to my old one, and the

keyboard became perfectly tolerable again.



So I guess I'm saying that it's more complicated that just thinking

about the keyboard by itself.



Marc



   
     

   
   


 



 







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Any keyboard will make the radio buzz at close range.

It is conceivable a metal one will not, but unless it's
grounded the electric field could be terrible if connected
to a computer. Going to a laptop on battery might
be a solution.

Grounding well is not easy, but if you are inside a faraday
cage and ground to it with a wide metal strap that should be
perfect. You want the keyboard and everything under
you, over you, and behind you to be at the same potential.
For this purpose the cage can be mostly open, just a metal
frame... you just
need a path for the electric field to go around you instead
of through you.

If you do this have the metal strap or braid trace back
near the keyboard cable so you don't make any big loops.


On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:25 AM, R. Ticle <[hidden email]> wrote:


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Bill, thanks.

Yes, the electric field is a consideration.  I'm not in (nor prepared to build) a faraday cage. 

This keyboard currently has a very low electric field even hooked up to this big desktop PC, running on AC with normal, standard power supplies.  Toget a high electric field reading on it with the TriField meter, I literally have to mash down the keys with the top of the meter.

Yes, it's hard to say how the metal one would work.  Should I just try and get a TEMPEST keyboard instead, for partial, ready made shielding withouta full metal body?

R.

--- On Fri, 7/16/10, Bill Bruno <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Bill Bruno <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] Solid metal keyboards; a good or silly choice for EMFs?
To: [hidden email]
Received: Friday, July 16, 2010, 5:49 PM

Any keyboard will make the radio buzz at close range.

It is conceivable a metal one will not, but unless it's
grounded the electric field could be terrible if connected
to a computer.  Going to a laptop on battery might
be a solution.

Grounding well is not easy, but if you are inside a faraday
cage and ground to it with a wide metal strap that should be
perfect.  You want the keyboard and everything under
you, over you, and behind you to be at the same potential.
For this purpose the cage can be mostly open, just a metal
frame... you just
need a path for the electric field to go around you instead
of through you.

If you do this have the metal strap or braid trace back
near the keyboard cable so you don't make any big loops.


On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:25 AM, R. Ticle <[hidden email]> wrote:


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've never seen a TEMPEST keyboard for sale.
Bruce M. said he tried one and could not use it (but he's
ultra sensitive).

I think TEMPEST would be a better bet if you can find one,
and if it's compatible with your computer (they may use
ancient connectors).

With a lot of these things proper engineering design
is the most important factor, but often hard to predict.



On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 12:48 PM, R. Ticle <[hidden email]> wrote:


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You're right, it is hard to find them from actual suppliers of such equipment.  Looking around, this is the only site I've seen that actually shows/lists them (at the bottom of the page):

http://www.advprograms.com/accessories.htm

They look like modern keyboards to me, but the questions are:

-how good would it be, EMF-wise, really? Certainly better than an off the shelf keyboard, but how much better?

-how much do they cost (I have no idea, I'm just wondering out loud, here)?

-how hard is it for the average person to get one? I mean, can I just phone'em up and order one? I'm not from a branch of any government or any such client who would normally need such a thing.  What's my excuse for wanting one? Again, just wondering out loud, but if you or anyone has an idea of what to say, let me know, lol. 

Cheers,

R.

--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Bill Bruno <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Bill Bruno <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] Solid metal keyboards; a good or silly choice for EMFs?
To: [hidden email]
Received: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 4:11 AM

I've never seen a TEMPEST keyboard for sale.
Bruce M. said he tried one and could not use it (but he's
ultra sensitive).

I think TEMPEST would be a better bet if you can find one,
and if it's compatible with your computer (they may use
ancient connectors).

With a lot of these things proper engineering design
is the most important factor, but often hard to predict.



On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 12:48 PM, R. Ticle <[hidden email]> wrote:


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oops; having read further about it, it would probably be pretty sketchy to try to buy one of these things.  According to one site, anything with a "Class 1" (or "Class 2") rating (which are from what I understand, the most shielded) is

"A classified or controlled
cryptographic equipment, assembly, component, or item endorsed
by the National Security Agency (NSA) for securing
telecommunications and automated information systems for the
protection of classified or sensitive U.S. Government
information exempted by the Warner Amendment for use by the U.S.
Government and its contractors, and subject to restrictions in
accordance with the International Traffic in Arms"

Damn.  I'd better just reinvestigate shielding stuff myself.  :P

R.

--- On Sun, 7/18/10, R. Ticle <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: R. Ticle <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] Solid metal keyboards; a good or silly choice for EMFs?
To: [hidden email]
Received: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 1:23 PM







 



 


   
     
     
You're right, it is hard to find them from actual suppliers of such equipment.  Looking around, this is the only site I've seen that actually shows/lists them (at the bottom of the page):



http://www.advprograms.com/accessories.htm



They look like modern keyboards to me, but the questions are:



-how good would it be, EMF-wise, really? Certainly better than an off the shelf keyboard, but how much better?



-how much do they cost (I have no idea, I'm just wondering out loud, here)?



-how hard is it for the average person to get one? I mean, can I just phone'em up and order one? I'm not from a branch of any government or any such client who would normally need such a thing.  What's my excuse for wanting one? Again, just wondering out loud, but if you or anyone has an idea of what to say, let me know, lol. 



Cheers,



R.



--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Bill Bruno <[hidden email]> wrote:



From: Bill Bruno <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [eSens] Solid metal keyboards; a good or silly choice for EMFs?

To: [hidden email]

Received: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 4:11 AM



I've never seen a TEMPEST keyboard for sale.

Bruce M. said he tried one and could not use it (but he's

ultra sensitive).



I think TEMPEST would be a better bet if you can find one,

and if it's compatible with your computer (they may use

ancient connectors).



With a lot of these things proper engineering design

is the most important factor, but often hard to predict.



On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 12:48 PM, R. Ticle <[hidden email]> wrote:



>

>

> Hi Bill, thanks.

>

> Yes, the electric field is a consideration.  I'm not in (nor prepared to

> build) a faraday cage.

>

> This keyboard currently has a very low electric field even hooked up to

> this big desktop PC, running on AC with normal, standard power supplies.  To

> get a high electric field reading on it with the TriField meter, I literally

> have to mash down the keys with the top of the meter.

>

> Yes, it's hard to say how the metal one would work.  Should I just try and

> get a TEMPEST keyboard instead, for partial, ready made shielding withouta

> full metal body?

>

> R.

>

> --- On Fri, 7/16/10, Bill Bruno <[hidden email] <wbruno%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

>

> From: Bill Bruno <[hidden email] <wbruno%40gmail.com>>

>

> Subject: Re: [eSens] Solid metal keyboards; a good or silly choice for

> EMFs?

> To: [hidden email] <eSens%40yahoogroups.com>

> Received: Friday, July 16, 2010, 5:49 PM

>

>

> Any keyboard will make the radio buzz at close range.

>

> It is conceivable a metal one will not, but unless it's

> grounded the electric field could be terrible if connected

> to a computer.  Going to a laptop on battery might

> be a solution.

>

> Grounding well is not easy, but if you are inside a faraday

> cage and ground to it with a wide metal strap that should be

> perfect.  You want the keyboard and everything under

> you, over you, and behind you to be at the same potential.

> For this purpose the cage can be mostly open, just a metal

> frame... you just

> need a path for the electric field to go around you instead

> of through you.

>

> If you do this have the metal strap or braid trace back

> near the keyboard cable so you don't make any big loops.

>

> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:25 AM, R. Ticle <[hidden email]<rticleone%40yahoo.ca>>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Thanks, Marc.  If you do get the chance to check it with the radio,

> please

> > do let me/us here know what you found.

> >

> > I understand you about the computer itself.  I just ordered a small,

> > fanless system, and I'm really hoping that it's a lot better than this

> > desktop PC (it should be, since it'll be quiet - silent, in fact, and

> > there'll be no moving parts (fans, nor HDD, since it'll be a solid state

> > hard drive)...it's a low power Atom processor, too.

> >

> > Cheers,

> >

> > R.

> >

> > --- On Fri, 7/16/10, Marc Martin <[hidden email]<marc%40ufoseries.com>

> <marc%40ufoseries.com>>

> > wrote:

> >

> > From: Marc Martin <[hidden email] <marc%40ufoseries.com> <marc%

> 40ufoseries.com>>

>

> >

> > Subject: Re: [eSens] Solid metal keyboards; a good or silly choice for

> > EMFs?

> > To: [hidden email] <eSens%40yahoogroups.com> <eSens%

> 40yahoogroups.com>

>

> > Received: Friday, July 16, 2010, 4:15 PM

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > Thanks both of you for your replies.  Have either of you checkedyour

> >

> > > keyboards with an AM radio?

> >

> > No, but that would be easy enough to do... I will say however that when

> >

> > I bought a new computer last year, my keyboard seemed to be causing me

> >

> > problems when it never did before with my previous computer. So it

> >

> > seemed to me that I was reacting more to the signal coming from the

> >

> > computer to the keyboard, not the keyboard itself. I eventually

> >

> > returned the new computer and went back to my old one, and the

> >

> > keyboard became perfectly tolerable again.

> >

> > So I guess I'm saying that it's more complicated that just thinking

> >

> > about the keyboard by itself.

> >

> > Marc

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

> >

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> 

>



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