Response to Marc

Shivani had said:
"When I look through catalogs full of electronic gizmos, that are
supposed to make our lives easier and improve our health, but which
produce damaging frequencies, I cringe."

Marc replied:
Yes, but since you have not personally tried these items, I don't
think you are qualified to state that any of these items actually
cause any damage. You are only assuming they do, based on
assumptions which may not even be correct.

Shivani replies:
The kind of gizmos I am tallking about are things like wireless
indoor/outdoor thermometers and weather stations that radio broadcast a signal through
your whole house, wireless remote controls, wireless headsets for your
stereo or DVD player, dimmer-switch alarm clocks that brighten gradually,
high-frequency pest control units, variable-speed motor treadmills, all kinds of
vibrators/foot spas/ etcetera that connect you directly not only to the electrical
circuit but produce frequencies of their own....
I am very curious, also, about gizmos like the new "Chaperone Satellite
Vehicle Tracker," and the Dreamate Sleep Aid, that "delivers
double-frequency micromassage to specific pulse points" on your wrist ("Not suitable for
persons with pacemakers.")
Since I know that exposing myself to high freqencies is harmful, why on
earth would I want to spend money on such things to "try them out?"
If you do, though, Marc, please let us know what you experience?

Marc also said:
You seem to be a bit hypocritical on this matter -- you feel free
to say that all sorts of gizmos are harmful, even though you have
absolutely no experience to back this up,

Shivani replies:
I have definitely not maligned all sorts of gizmos. I haven't even
maligned one. Name me one brand name gizmo that I have said is harmful. What
I said is " "When I look through catalogs full of electronic gizmos, that are
supposed to make our lives easier and improve our health, but which produce
damaging frequencies, I cringe." I cetainly do have enough experience with
what RF does to me to be justified in feeling this way.

Marc continued, to say that I
"...jump all over anyone who has anything negative to say about the
Stetzer
products...."

Shivani responds:
Why are you exagerrating so, Marc? I have been asking ONE person,
Charles, to produce the research he has mentioned, supposedly done by Bajog,
supposedly on the Stetzer filters.
As you are group moderator, I cannot understand your position. It is
OK with you for someone to say, without supporting his assertion, that he has
specific information from a study by a particular group relating to a
particular product, which puts the product in a negative light. (In this case,
claiming that the filters can do the polar opposite of what they are designed to
do.) But it is for some reason not OK with you if others ask Charles to back up
what he has said by sharing whatever Bajog did and said.
The bottom line here is not imaginary, nor is it trivial. The reason
this is important is because if Bajog did not do as Charles claims, then what
he has said is a concocted fiction, designed to malign the Stetzer filters.
If you want eSens to be on the up-and-up, you should be very, very
interested in Charles' producing the information requested of him.

Regards,
Shivani Arjuna
www.LifeEnergies.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shivani writes:
> The kind of gizmos I am tallking about are things like wireless
> indoor/outdoor thermometers and weather stations that radio broadcast

Ahhh, my apologies... I thought this was yet another put-down of
EMF protection devices, which you tend to present as "snake oil",
(even though you don't appear to have ever used them).

> I have definitely not maligned all sorts of gizmos. I haven't even
> maligned one.

On the EMR-EMF yahoo group, you posted the following a month ago:

'However, I and many others are not interested in "protection products"
that make no meterable difference in the exposure. Have you read
Don Maisch's comments on such protection devices? I concur.'

I believe Don Maisch's comments were along the lines that "all EMF
protection devices are scams". I'd definitely call that maligning...

> As you are group moderator, I cannot understand your position.

My position is that perhaps you are being rather overzealous? I think
you have asked this question over and over, and if it hasn't been
answered to your satisfaction by now, then it probably never will be.
And if Charles hasn't provided enough information to convince you,
then you don't have to believe him.

And your insinuations that Charles is making things up to malign
the Stetzer filters or that lawsuits could be involved seems to
be a bit uncalled for...

Marc

Let me say, that first of all, ionic foot spas can bring the
electrosensibility down enormously.

Secondly, it seems that Dave Stetzer is not questioning anything.
Only Shivani is.


As I stated before, Shivani cannot read German text, so it is of no use for
her that I send some German papers.
I also stated, that if Stetzer has a problem, he should contact Bajog
directly.

Further it is my opinion, that the two Stetzer filters I bought are shit.
They bear the markings of Stetzerizer, but no CE mark.
They also do not seem to have any resemblance with the filters shown on the
Stetzer HP, nor on the present Lessemf HP. Both do not show any holes for a
plug-in.
Mine have.

I hope that it is now clear.

Sure I am entitled to state that a product which I legally ordered and paid
for, is of inferior quality.
They were no prototypes and I paid the full price.

I do not have any intention.

Greetings,
Charles Claessens
member Verband Baubiologie
www.milieuziektes.nl
www.milieuziektes.be
www.hetbitje.nl
checked by Norton Antivirus




----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 03:03
Subject: [eSens] Response to Marc

> As I stated before, Shivani cannot read German text, so it is of no use for
> her that I send some German papers.

I suppose that if you have German papers, you could send them to
Shivani anyway, and she could pay someone to translate them into
English for her (there are people who do that, after all!)

However, her interest in defending the Stetzer filters does seem
to go beyond what a typical ES person would do. I guess that
may be because she is in close contact with the manufacturer, and
also because she sells Stetzer filters on her website.

Marc

Hi Marc:

I too have been more than a bit puzzled at the ferocity and
zelousness which Shivani has attacked Charles (and tried to reframe
or twist his words and intentions) for his report and attacked Marc
on related issues (i.e., Charles and the European Stetzer filters)
and also tried to reframe or twist his (to me, very straightforward
and honest) behavior in this matter, as I had never realized that
Shivani was a vendor of any products. Then, last night, a list member
advised me that Shivani has a business which sells Stetzer filters,
and it kinda clicked into place for me. This fact, coupled with the
attacks, raises further credibility issues for me about Shivani's posts.

with care,
--Vinny

At 10:02 AM 12/7/2006, you wrote:

Vinny Pinto
[hidden email]

phone 301-694-1249

To see my informational websites and e-mail list groups, please go to:
http://www.vinnypinto.us

To state it again.

I am not going to send any papers.
I am not going into discussions.
Why is Shivani in the USA interested in European versions of these filters?
Does she want to sell to Europe?
Does she know what types of wall plugs we have overhere?
Does she know the regulations of KEMA, VDE, CEBEC, etc.?

If Stetzer sees any problems, he can contact Bajog directly.
They know english also.

Greetings,
Charles Claessens
member Verband Baubiologie
www.milieuziektes.nl
www.milieuziektes.be
www.hetbitje.nl
checked by Norton Antivirus









----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Martin" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 16:02
Subject: Re: [eSens] Stetzer filters

Hi Charles:

This is just a brief note to thank you and Marc and several other
list members for the informative and interesting and fun discussions
which we have had over the past few months here. I will be scaling
back my list presence as of this morning by switching to web-only
access for posts, although I hope to stop by the site home page and
skim messages occasionally, and thus I will be far less active on
this list from this point onward. This shift in my degree of presence
has been occasioned largely by two factors:
* I need to start preparing for an upcoming consulting trip to
Asia at the end of the month
* Some events which I have been witnessing on this list where
non-technically-qualified members -- often persons with their own
(often bizarre) hidden or covert personal agendas -- tend to try to
override discussions or push their agendas with over-zealousness,
including to the point of attacking or "baiting" other list members
(the primarly target seems to be yourself, but I have seen potshots
at Marc and myself as well!) I manage fifteen public list groups
myself, and I would rather confine my efforts to those list groups at
this time!
I thank you for your fine participation and posts, and I thank Marc
for his noble and always-patient efforts in managing this list group!
I wish you all the best with your projects and your health and well-being!

with care,
--Vinny

At 01:56 PM 12/7/2006, you wrote:

Vinny Pinto
[hidden email]

phone 301-694-1249

To see my informational websites and e-mail list groups, please go to:
http://www.vinnypinto.us





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]