Reducing Ethernet cable emissions...which method?

I may be trying a small Eee PC Netbook computer soon, and if it works out, replacing this big desktop for something with way less EMF, hopefully.

One concern I have is that the blue Ethernet cable we use to run from the cable modem to the wired router and also to my dad's PC in the basement doens't seem to be shielded; this is not a problem I'd thought of before.

The cable has a very high electric field at close range, with a Trifield meter, and I can pick up a very distinct RF noise pattern with AM radio whenever data is transferred, coming from the Ethernet cable, at at least a few inches away from the cable; that is, it's being radiated from the cable.

This concerns me because with a small laptop type computer like the Eee PC,the Ethernet cable would be, by necessity, plugged in close to me, since the Eee PC is one self-contained unit. This desktop, on the other hand, hassome distance between me and the Ethernet cable, because the cable plugs into the tower.

That means that the RF is close, as well as the high electric field, and I'm assuming that the electric field would also be conducted into the Eee PC.

Argh.

Can anything be done to ensure the Ethernet cable is not radiating RF closeby, and that the electric field can somehow be halted?

These are the potential solutions I see:

-Shielded Ethernet Cable (but does its definition of "shielded" do what I want it to?)

-Wrapping the existing Ethernet Cable in aluminum foil (or would something else be better? And how would I ground it?)

-Doing one or two of the above, plus putting high attenuation, broad spectrum RFI killing ferrite clamps on all ends of the Ethernet cable (at the modem, at the router, and at the Eee PC).

-Getting fiber optics (if this would work I don't know, but it would probably cost as much as a brand new high end desktop PC!)

Am I on the right track? Can anything be done? Am I mistaken about what fiber optics or "shielded" cable can do? Etc., etc.

I thank you for your help!

R.

--- In [hidden email], "rticleone" <rticleone@...> wrote:

Hi Ive tried the small netbooks ( I tried the Dell Mini) to see if I would feel better but I still felt bad with it was only a little better than my old 13.3" toshiba laptop, I decided to just buy a macbook pro aluminum sinceits aluminum case I though it might help to not let some of the RF out, so far this is the best solution for laptop ive found. Its reduced my symptoms 40-50% compared to a regular laptop with a regular casing. you might also look into one that has a carbon fiber casing since carbon absorbs and reflects rf.

You could try also putting multiple ferrite bead on there to block out as eide a range of the frquencies, if you go to amidon.com they sell differenttypes of ferrites and they tell you which frequncies they help attenuate.You should also put these on your keyboard and mouse wire if youre using external ones(which i would highly recomend)

Most people think the magnetic radiation is what our major computer symptoms, but In my opinion its the frequncies from the processors (eg *2.4GHz* dual core procesors) and graphics cards and such are what causes our symptoms,I think they emit a field similar to an rf field but its not detected by rf meters. The reason I believe this is that when i cover my laptop with anrf reflecting material around the laptop and a see through rf blocking film on the screen, along with some carbon fiber sheets around it to absorb rf, my symptoms reduce very signifcatly, theres no question in me about it I can feel it.

if your worried about the electric field you could actually ground your laptop with a 1/8 audio cable into the headphone jack and connect the other toyou house ground somehow.

sorry if something doesnt makes sense Im kinda tired right now, hopefully you found something useful in there.

Cristian

In a message dated 10/06/2009 10:45:46 GMT Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:

> The cable has a very high electric field at close range, with a Trifield
meter, and I can pick up a very distinct RF noise pattern with AM radio
whenever data is transferred, coming from the Ethernet cable, at at least a
few inches away from the cable; that is, it's being radiated from the cable.



paul uk rplies -Not an expert but experience shows me - A sheilded cable
will reduce efeild but will also carry very efficently over the metal
sheilding dirty power frequencies, and will give off small em feilds - sounds
like your cable is picking up an earth loop conected to 2 or more different
devices, you may need to look at separately earthing your equipment to drain
the stray current, the nly answer for cables is to keep your distance or
go to fibre optic.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, both of you. Thanks for answering.

I'm still not sure what to do; I've started looking into mini-itx systems that can be run from a separate battery, and LED lit monitors that can have the electronics yanked out and put in a shielded box and run off a second battery. Still would have to figure out how to deal with the keyboard and mouse, but overall, while not as "cool" and lightweight as an Eee PC alone, it would keep all the working-parts farther away from me.

Now, about the cable; I've thought about using shielded cable, though haven't tried. It's not a huge investment, but it's still something.  

Yesterday we tried wrapping the router well in foil, and running a groundwire from the router outside, into the ground - trying to address the electric field at the source. Unfortunately, this didn't do diddly squat. Okay, it did something; the e-field right at the router was shielded, but it's hard to tell if it was running along the ground wire, or just being picked upby other electrical wires, or metal objects nearby.

The field in the Ethernet cable was the same.

This much I can say: The power source of the router is a standard wall-wart-transformer type plug; if I recall correctly, it's turning AC into 5V DC, at 2A. It (the transformer) has a huge electric field at close range, fromthe plug to the wire, to the DC-jack that plugs into the router.  

The router then picks this e-field up. What I'm not sure about is this: isthe electric field that travels along the Ethernet cable mostly of a conducted nature (along the copper in the cable), or is it a necessary function of the cable to transmit the data?

Let's say the latter was the case. Wouldn't that mean that, even if I grounded the cable up to the point it entered the computer, it would still put all that e-field *inside* the computer, through the cable's RJ45 plug?

Ergh...

Paul, you said that "sounds like your cable is picking up an earth loop connected to 2 or more different devices, you may need to look at separately earthing your equipment to drain the stray current."

Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean? I must apologize, my terminology is incomplete.  

What I can tell you is that our house's electricity is probably a mess, with too many above average magnetic fields and excessively rising mag-fields when appliances are on...and that the router is plugged into a power strip where there are a number of other things plugged, too, like the cable modem, and who knows what else. Oh, and I think this power strip is in turn plugged into an extension cord, which is plugged into who knows what...

Could this setup be an issue, too?

I have thought about running the cable to the Eee PC, then somehow grounding the Eee, but that could be a challenge...

As for fiber optics, I enthusiastically investigated them, only to be very disappointed by this fact: apparently (based on every site I've seen and technician I've talked to, but correct me if it's incorrect), using fiber optics as a replacement for Ethernet cable means that you need a "media converter" at each end, one at the router, one at the computer, to convert the light signals into electrical signals that the computer will recognize as internet data.  

And, these media converters all run on switchmode AC-DC transformers, some 12, some 24 volts, maybe other voltages, but the point is that they need tobe plugged in, each cost 40 to over a hundred bucks in, and their power supplies would render the non-conductivity and no-RF features of the fiber optic cable useless for me; what'd be the point of that, if what's need to make the optic cable work generates high electric and magnetic fields, and its own RF from the AC-DC conversion, right at close range which I'm trying to avoid?

Damn, damn, damn. I had thought fiber optic cable was "plug n' play", and was ready to invest some extra dollars into it; it seems I was mistaken.

Any more thoughts, clarifications, or advice is appreciated.

Thank you!

R.







--- In [hidden email], paulpjc@... wrote:

> Now, about the cable; I've thought about using shielded cable, though
> haven't tried. It's not a huge investment, but it's still something.

You know, I experimented with various types of shielded Ethernet cables,
and I actually thought they were WORSE than unshielded cables, although
I'm not sure why that would be. Perhaps the extra metal in the cables
was picking up ambient EMF or something (?).

This was around the same time I was experimenting with DSL vs. cable for
high speed internet. In the end, I just stuck with unshielded ethernet
cables and DSL.

Marc


>

Hi Marc,

Have you ever measured the fields (in this case I'm most curious/concerned about the high electric cable) coming from regular (or shielded) Ethernet cable?

I'm trying to figure out if the field here is an anomaly or par for the course. The main concern is that it would be in the Eee PC netbook, and rebroadcast through its circuitry and metal sheet under the keyboard.

This Ethernet cable actually puts more electric field into my computer thanthe computer's own AC power cord!

R.

--- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@...> wrote:

I suspect the modem is the main problem. If you can run it on DC it may
solve it.
(or a linear regulated power supply?) Shielding would also help if it was
grounded
to a good ground. Metal conduit (EMT) would be better still. The ultimate
is
fiber optic links.
Bill

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 8:20 AM, rticleone <[hidden email]> wrote:


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Have you ever measured the fields (in this case I'm most
> curious/concerned about the high electric cable) coming from regular (or
> shielded) Ethernet cable?

No, this was a simple "how do I feel?" test.

Marc

Also useful! I'm stuck between "what's the measurement" and "how do I feel?", because I don't always feel something right away...

R.

--- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@...> wrote:
>
> > Have you ever measured the fields (in this case I'm most
> > curious/concerned about the high electric cable) coming from regular (or
> > shielded) Ethernet cable?
>
> No, this was a simple "how do I feel?" test.  
>
> Marc
>

> Also useful! I'm stuck between "what's the measurement" and "how do I
> feel?", because I don't always feel something right away...

I don't usually notice the Ethernet at all (except for large downloads),
but I temporarily was the owner of a nasty desktop PC which seemed to
be an amplifier for everything that was nasty about my Internet connection,
so it made for good testing equipment before I returned it!

With my current PC, I wonder if I'd even notice the difference between
shielded vs. unshielded Ethernet cable...

Marc

If the shield is grounded to the case then the power supply can
contaminate the cable shield. What is your current PC?
Bill

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 9:51 AM, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The current PC is just a...desktop model, AMD Athlon 3800 2.0 GHz Dual Corebox, with a normal Dell LCD.

It's upstairs, the router and modem are plugged in downstairs, with the Ethernet cable running along the ceiling and through the floor...

R.

--- In [hidden email], Bill Bruno <wbruno@...> wrote:

> If the shield is grounded to the case then the power supply can
> contaminate the cable shield. What is your current PC?

My current desktop PC is a 5-year old Sony VAIO PCV-RS610.
This is much more tolerable than the newer one I tried to
replace it with earlier this year.

Marc

In a message dated 10/06/2009 17:48:43 GMT Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:

It's upstairs, the router and modem are plugged in downstairs, with the
Ethernet cable running along the ceiling and through the floor...



paul uk - the cables could be picking up rf from adjacent wiring and pipes
bare this in mind.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Quite possible; until the wires could be isolated, or we tried shielded cable, it'd be hard to know.  The modem, of course, puts out some rather awful RF, itself, but the AM radio test doesn't indicate that as much as you'dthink would be the case is being transferred to the router.

--- On Wed, 6/10/09, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] Re: Reducing Ethernet cable emissions...which method?
To: [hidden email]
Received: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 10:52 PM











   
           
           


     
       

In a message dated 10/06/2009 17:48:43 GMT Daylight Time,  

rticleone@yahoo. ca writes:



It's upstairs, the router and modem are plugged in downstairs, with the

Ethernet cable running along the ceiling and through the floor...



paul uk - the cables could be picking up rf from adjacent wiring and pipes  

bare this in mind.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




 

     

   
   
       
         
       
       








       


       
       


__________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hi R and Marc, 
 
i have more problems w the ethernet cable after it is turned off than on!  it can pick up outside frequencies and broadcast them in my room on some occasions.  however, i don't usually react to it while using the puter.   like Marc said--downloads--and i think also sometimes uploading.  i just initiate those functions and leave the room.  no real problem.
 
d

--- On Wed, 6/10/09, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [eSens] Re: Reducing Ethernet cable emissions...which method?
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 11:51 AM








> Also useful! I'm stuck between "what's the measurement" and "how do I
> feel?", because I don't always feel something right away...

I don't usually notice the Ethernet at all (except for large downloads),
but I temporarily was the owner of a nasty desktop PC which seemed to
be an amplifier for everything that was nasty about my Internet connection,
so it made for good testing equipment before I returned it!

With my current PC, I wonder if I'd even notice the difference between
shielded vs. unshielded Ethernet cable...

Marc
















     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]