Little tolerence for supplaments

> It is quite easy to use a pendulum and get some feedback from your
> energetic system.

Although, as I understand it, if someone cannot get accurate
results from muscle testing, then they also cannot get
accurate answers from a pendulum. This is because a person
is "switched", and they need to get "unswitched" before
they can get reliable results.

And typically, people with ES are "switched".

Marc

We`d agree both about the probiotics and the "ordering of allergies" - that`s what our specialist has told us and it fits Sue`s history.
.
On "which supplements to take" we`re finding more and more evidence that it can be very individual to the particular person. The immune system has a "Phase 1" and four "Phase 2" detoxification pathways, all working in parallel. It can depend which one(s) aren`t working. In Sue`s case we now have test results which suggest that 3 out of the 4 Phase 2 pathways now aren`t working for various reasons. Hence only supplements that will help the particular pathway that is deficient will be useful. Sue has tried milk thistle a lot but it doesn`t seem to have helped her much and it made her "hyper" (stressed), on the other hand it has clearly helped a lot of people with a different set of detox problems.
.
Ian and Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: Cara
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 3:00 PM
Subject: [eSens] Re: Little tolerence for supplaments



Hillel, I bet your instinct about probiotics is right. One thing I'm
learning about ES is that your body often knows things that your mind
is slower to take in. Your stomach problems sound just like my
husband's, by the way -- he is sensitive to foods also. One MD I
spoke with recently (specialist in chelation therapy, yeast, etc)
mentioned that ES is often one of the later "allergies" that develops
when a person's immune system is compromised; that other
sensitivities such as food often develop first. The implication
seemed to be, if we pay attention to the digestive problems and
address the underlying immune system issues sooner, we may be able to
avoid the ES... Personally I don't know if this hierarchical view of
sensitivities has any real basis but it's interesting.

In any case, have you tried milk thistle? This supports the liver, I
think, and it is one of the first supplements that my husband could
tolerate and that noticeably helped with digestive issues.

If you are curious about leaky gut and yeast syndrome (related
problems that affect digestion), I just checked out some library
books on these topics and am reviewing them now. Contact me offline
if you want my recommended reading list. :-)

Cara


--- In [hidden email], "hillelwahrman" <whillel@h...> wrote:
>
> My gut feeling (pun intended)is setteling for proboitecs right now.
.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you have leaky gut (systemic yeast) it will take more than good
eating, you will have to go after the yeast and kill it and be
tested to see what foods have been leaking thru the intestinal wall
causing your body to become allergic to them, you have to stop
eating them for awhile so everything will calm down, been there done
that...Debbie

--- In [hidden email], "hillelwahrman" <whillel@h...> wrote:
>
> My gut feeling (pun intended)is setteling for proboitecs right
now.
> ALL vitamns seem to get me over stimulated, and NAC gets my heart
> beat to speed up, which realy scared me. I Assume I have a

Hi Ian and Sue, can you say more about the two phases of the
immune system, and the four detox pathways of Phase 2? Also,
what tests did Sue have done to see which pathways were
working for her?

Thanks,
Cara
--- In [hidden email], "Sue and Ian Kemp"
<ianandsue.kemp@u...> wrote:
The immune system has a "Phase 1" and four "Phase 2"
detoxification pathways, all working in parallel. It can depend
which one(s) aren`t working. In Sue`s case we now have test
results which suggest that 3 out of the 4 Phase 2 pathways now
aren`t working for various reasons. Hence only supplements that
will help the particular pathway that is deficient will be useful.
> .
> Ian and Sue>

Hi Cara, I`ll split my reply into two as otherwise it will get rather long.

Sue has had a lot of tests done, including a comprehensive stool analysis (including parasitology) and an investigation for underlying ME/CFS factors like Epstein-Barr viruses. These in fact gave negative results, but were useful for eliminating possible causes and saving us from going down blind alleys. However, the two which gave really interesting results in her particular case were a comprehensive health screen from Biocare (measuring levels of lots of body chemicals) and a cysteine/sulphate test. The first showed, among other things, that her glutathione was extremely low, plus some concerns about glycine levels/ratios. The second showed that her cysteine level was OK but her sulphate level was very low, which means something is probably wrong with the enzyme or process which converts between them. (And also that the normally suggested cure for sulphation problems, adding cysteine or similar organic sulphur, probably won`t work, and inorganic sulphate such as Epsom salts - magnesium sulphate - is needed.) As these are three of the four Phase 2 detoxification pathways (see separate email), its no wonder that Sue`s immune system seems to have been struggling badly!
.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: Cara
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 5:28 PM
Subject: [eSens] Re: Little tolerence for supplements



Hi Ian and Sue, can you say more about the two phases of the
immune system, and the four detox pathways of Phase 2? Also,
what tests did Sue have done to see which pathways were
working for her?

Thanks,
Cara
--- In [hidden email], "Sue and Ian Kemp"
<ianandsue.kemp@u...> wrote:
The immune system has a "Phase 1" and four "Phase 2"
detoxification pathways, all working in parallel. It can depend
which one(s) aren`t working. In Sue`s case we now have test
results which suggest that 3 out of the 4 Phase 2 pathways now
aren`t working for various reasons. Hence only supplements that
will help the particular pathway that is deficient will be useful.
> .
> Ian and Sue>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- .
From: Cara
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 5:28 PM
Subject: [eSens] Re: Little tolerence for supplements

Hi Ian and Sue, can you say more about the two phases of the
immune system, and the four detox pathways of Phase 2?
There`s several sites and books which say something about this, for example http://www.liverdoctor.com/03_detoxpathways.asp, but the explanations that we`ve found most helpful and thorough have been from Dr Munro and Dr Mansfield in the UK and the Great Smokies Lab in the USA (Detoxification Profile application guide - this is on http://www.gsdl.com/home/assessments/detox/appguide/index.html but annoyingly is missing the figures/diagrams which make things most clear). I`ll try to summarise these.

We eat, drink, breathe in or absorb various harmful substances, like heavy metals, fumes, drugs etc. The liver tries to get rid of them, mainly by breaking them down into smaller molecules which dissolve in water and can then be got rid of, e.g. via the kidneys as urine. Phase 1 and Phase 2 are two related processes which do this (I find this terminology confusing, as it suggests they are two steps following one on the other, whereas often they are alternatives).
.
For Phase 1, the breakdown occurs by a group of enzymes collectively called P-450.

The four Phase 2 mechanisms are
- glutathione conjugation (GLUT), needs glutathione
- glucuronidation (GLUC)
- glycine conjugation (GLY), also called amino acid conjugation or acylation
- sulphation/sulfation (SUL), needs sulphate ions
In fact, since my original message, I`ve found a couple of sites that mention two more major mechanisms, bringing the total up to 6 -
- methylation (METH)
- acetylation (ACET).
I thought the description at http://tuberose.com/Liver_Detoxification.html was particularly clear. Also http://www.alternative-doctor.com/allergydotcom/detoxification.htm has quite a good diagram (though incomplete).
.
Different materials get detoxified by different routes, e.g. caffeine by Phase 1, acetaminophen (paracetamol) by Phase 2 GLUT/GLUC/SUL, salicylic acid by Phase 1 and Phase 2 GLY. The Great Smokies test is based on giving someone a controlled amount of these 3 substances and seeing how they react. We have not dared to try it on Sue, though!
.
So, depending on which pathways aren`t working, different people may have trouble with different foods, drugs etc. But the long-term effect in all cases seems to be to run down your immune system until it can`t cope any more.

The trouble with most of the websites is that they then tend to recommend lots of supplements based on general principles. This won`t be any help for people who can`t ingest supplements orally (through the gut), which may include quite a lot of ME/CFS/MCS/ES sufferers. Also, there can be important exceptions. Vitamin B12 and folic acid are needed for the methylation pathway, but for people with high histamine, there are reports that they can make depression worse. And if the SUL pathway isn`t working, supplementation with cysteine, taurine or glutathione is usually recommended, but if the body`s conversion process to turn these into sulphate is what is failing, they will simply make matters worse (this seems to be the case for Sue).
.
And if you feel confused by all of this, don`t worry - so do we!
.
Ian and Sue


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Sue has had a lot of tests done, including a comprehensive stool analysis
> (including parasitology)

I'll be interested to hear (in about a year's time) if you felt these
tests were of any value to Sue's recovery. I had a bunch of these
types of tests done, and they showed all sorts of things wrong, but the
problem was, the doctor's attempt to fix these problems didn't work!
So, to me, if you don't make any progress as a result of having
tests done, then the tests themselves are somewhat useless!

Also, another problem you find is that every test like this has
a bunch of reasons why it won't give accurate (or meaningful)
results. For example, a hair mineral analysis test has nothing
to do with the mineral content in your organs, so you cannot
determine if one has heavy metal toxicity in various organs
with a hair test (even though many doctors still do this)

Marc

Could someone clarify the exact meaning of 'swtiched' please?

Thanks

Sarah


-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Martin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, 26 February 2005 6:42 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [eSens] pendulum



> It is quite easy to use a pendulum and get some feedback from your
> energetic system.

Although, as I understand it, if someone cannot get accurate results
from muscle testing, then they also cannot get accurate answers from a
pendulum. This is because a person is "switched", and they need to get
"unswitched" before they can get reliable results.

And typically, people with ES are "switched".

Marc



 
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Benson, Sarah (Sen L. Allison) wrote:
> Could someone clarify the exact meaning of 'swtiched' please?

I guess I should ask my practitioner for a definition, since
I don't know myself! All I know is that when one is switched,
muscle testing won't necessarily yield correct results. It might
have something to do with the left/right brain balance (or it might
not). I tried doing a quick search for the term, and came up with
the following page which suggested one method of correcting it:

http://www.advancedliving.com/muscletest.ivnu

Interestingly enough, this page is about testing for EMF sensitivity!


I suspect (although I don't know) that switching is defined in
the books about muscle testing: "Your Body Doesn't Lie" by John
Diamond, or "Your Body Can Talk" by Susan Levy, both available
at Amazon.com.

Marc

----- Original Message ----- .
From: Marc Martin
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: [eSens] Reasons/tests for supplement intolerance


> Sue has had a lot of tests done, including a comprehensive stool analysis
> (including parasitology)

I'll be interested to hear (in about a year's time) if you felt these
tests were of any value to Sue's recovery. I had a bunch of these
types of tests done, and they showed all sorts of things wrong, but the
problem was, the doctor's attempt to fix these problems didn't work!
So, to me, if you don't make any progress as a result of having
tests done, then the tests themselves are somewhat useless!

Also, another problem you find is that every test like this has
a bunch of reasons why it won't give accurate (or meaningful)
results. For example, a hair mineral analysis test has nothing
to do with the mineral content in your organs, so you cannot
determine if one has heavy metal toxicity in various organs
with a hair test (even though many doctors still do this)

Marc
-------------------------


A very fair comment. In fact we`ve had quite a few tests done over the last 3 or 4 years, and they have been of only limited use. As you say, hair analysis doesn`t say what`s in the organs - it just gives some hints on levels that might be high. We feel more confident now however that we have found a specialist doctor who can actually suggest which tests might be useful and which ones are a waste of time and money, or are inappropriae for Sue`s particular symptoms, and who knows enough to interpret the results. But as you say, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. No rapid cures have been promised from the interpretation, and we will have to see if the suggested ways forward actually work.
.
Ian


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hillel,

I have spent many years and thousands of dollars of supplements and
got very good at selecting them for purity, feeling their energy in
my hand, having reliable experts test them for me, and noticing their
effects. Only the very best tested "positive". The positive ones were
all food based, not isolated elements. Nevertheless, I have come to
the conclusion that they are unnecessary and many worked by
stimulating my hormonal systems, in part because they were stressful.
The only excpetion that I would recommend is Transfer Factor, which
is a raw food supplement that some people notice boosts them
significantly.

I started making more significant progress when I dropped all
supplemnts and focused on food: veg jucie, raw dairy, eggs, meat,
small amounts of fruit, raw honey, and fresh herbs that are way
stronger than any supplement to detoxify and have to be used
carefully in balance with other foods. This is the Primal Diet, and
there is a yahoo group in that name. There are books by Aajonus
Vonderplanitz who created the diet. He reports success in reversing
just about every disease. There are many specific recipies for
symptoms and type of toxicity.

Paul

Hi,

When I was muscle tested the first time I learned the following. The system (all bodies) needs to be in PACE. This means Positive, Active, Clear and Energetic. It took a while to get there, but was very easy. Rub on the ends of the central and governers meridian (your practitioner can test which meridians are blocked). Also touch your left knee with your right hand and vice versa for some minutes, then do it behind your body touching the heals. Fix your shield. And to center you can do a meditation where you breath light up through your feet to a spot a little over the top of your head and out through your feet again sweeping away all that is not of the Light. Up and out your left foot to the top of head (left side) up and out on the right side of your body. up left foot out right and vice versa, then up both sides and out both sides. (Clearing). All of these at least for about ten times, preferably more..

These exercises I got as "homework" and they feel good (although i did not get into the rhytm of actually following through). The next time I will go, and this thread has brought the muscle test back to my attention, thanks, I can bring my system in PACE, so my body will be ready to start answering questions right away. Have my own personal OK check, but now have decided to go back to the healer, because she has lists of questions and she gets through to issues very quick. I believe the type of questions should be positive so no No's in it because that is language that is not understood. (no spirulina is wrong because the question answered would be spirulina, so negations are out of this line of questioning).

could be that this was meant by switched, maybe blocked meridians??

Love and Light

"Benson, Sarah (Sen L. Allison)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Could someone clarify the exact meaning of 'swtiched' please?

Thanks

Sarah


-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Martin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, 26 February 2005 6:42 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [eSens] pendulum



> It is quite easy to use a pendulum and get some feedback from your
> energetic system.

Although, as I understand it, if someone cannot get accurate results
from muscle testing, then they also cannot get accurate answers from a
pendulum. This is because a person is "switched", and they need to get
"unswitched" before they can get reliable results.

And typically, people with ES are "switched".

Marc




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

When I was muscle tested the first time I learned the following. The system (all bodies) needs to be in PACE. This means Positive, Active, Clear and Energetic. It took a while to get there, but was very easy. Rub on the ends of the central and governers meridian (your practitioner can test which meridians are blocked). Also touch your left knee with your right hand and vice versa for some minutes, then do it behind your body touching the heals. Fix your shield. And to center you can do a meditation where you breath light up through your feet to a spot a little over the top of your head and out through your feet again sweeping away all that is not of the Light. Up and out your left foot to the top of head (left side) up and out on the right side of your body. up left foot out right and vice versa, then up both sides and out both sides. (Clearing). All of these at least for about ten times, preferably more..

These exercises I got as "homework" and they feel good (although i did not get into the rhytm of actually following through). The next time I will go, and this thread has brought the muscle test back to my attention, thanks, I can bring my system in PACE, so my body will be ready to start answering questions right away. Have my own personal OK check, but now have decided to go back to the healer, because she has lists of questions and she gets through to issues very quick. I believe the type of questions should be positive so no No's in it because that is language that is not understood. (no spirulina is wrong because the question answered would be spirulina, so negations are out of this line of questioning).

could be that this was meant by switched, maybe blocked meridians??

Love and Light

"Benson, Sarah (Sen L. Allison)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Could someone clarify the exact meaning of 'swtiched' please?

Thanks

Sarah


-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Martin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, 26 February 2005 6:42 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [eSens] pendulum



> It is quite easy to use a pendulum and get some feedback from your
> energetic system.

Although, as I understand it, if someone cannot get accurate results
from muscle testing, then they also cannot get accurate answers from a
pendulum. This is because a person is "switched", and they need to get
"unswitched" before they can get reliable results.

And typically, people with ES are "switched".

Marc




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